LOST

[Zounder]

[quote name='Ap2000' post='80159' date='May 24 2010, 03:07 PM']The island is, figuratively speaking, the cork that holds the bad shit down there in it's place. We also see that the weather becomes bad and the island starts to fall apart as soon as the plug has been pulled from that underground-well.[/quote]



When Jacob made that cork analogy in Ab Aeterno, I thought he was referring to containing MiB, but it turns out he really did mean the island!



Hurley/Ben spin-off show... "Lost: The Hurley Years." <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /dance.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

[Ap2000]

[quote name='Zounder' post='80161' date='May 24 2010, 09:27 PM']When Jacob made that cork analogy in Ab Aeterno, I thought he was referring to containing MiB, but it turns out he really did mean the island!



Hurley/Ben spin-off show... "Lost: The Hurley Years." <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /dance.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />[/quote]



Me too at first.



I think they could easily do one or two spin-off movies like they did with SG-1 or BSG.

Stuff that doesn't mess with the actual ending, but tells more of the backstory.



The only two questions I want to be answered are:

- What exactly is Smokey ? I don't mean the chemical compounds, but is it actually MIB or is it a being that just took MIB's soul as a catalyst to get free.

- Who built the huge statue ? (and why)



Other than that, I'm content.



Anyway, this is coming out soon, so maybe we'll get more insight into the Lost universe:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0756665...;pf_rd_i=468294

[Zounder]

[quote name='Ap2000' post='80162' date='May 24 2010, 03:37 PM']The only two questions I want to be answered are:

- What exactly is Smokey ? I don't mean the chemical compounds, but is it actually MIB or is it a being that just took MIB's soul as a catalyst to get free.

- Who built the huge statue ? (and why)[/quote]



Given how Flocke acted and what he said throughout the season, I think it's safe to assume Smokey = MiB straight up. As far as the statue goes, I think we got a small hint. The cave looked very Egyptian to me (And I think there was Egyptian writing on the rock/cork?) which means that they were there first, which means that the statue must have been built by them, which would make sense.



My big questions that had been bugging me (and I knew for sure I wasn't going to get the answer to, but I'll ask them anyway) were:



1. How the hell did Sayid get revived?

2. Why did Locke hear "help me" in Jacob's cabin, who said it, and how did they say it? And while we're at it, what was the deal with the cabin in general?



Overall, though, I'm very satisfied with the answers they provided, and I consider myself to be pretty demanding as far as answers go. I was very into the mythological aspect of the show, and I feel like they delivered.

[Ap2000]

[quote name='Zounder' post='80163' date='May 24 2010, 09:45 PM'][quote name='Ap2000' post='80162' date='May 24 2010, 03:37 PM']The only two questions I want to be answered are:

- What exactly is Smokey ? I don't mean the chemical compounds, but is it actually MIB or is it a being that just took MIB's soul as a catalyst to get free.

- Who built the huge statue ? (and why)[/quote]



Given how Flocke acted and what he said throughout the season, I think it's safe to assume Smokey = MiB straight up. As far as the statue goes, I think we got a small hint. The cave looked very Egyptian to me (And I think there was Egyptian writing on the rock/cork?) which means that they were there first, which means that the statue must have been built by them, which would make sense.



My big questions that had been bugging me (and I knew for sure I wasn't going to get the answer to, but I'll ask them anyway) were:



1. How the hell did Sayid get revived?

2. Why did Locke hear "help me" in Jacob's cabin, who said it, and how did they say it? And while we're at it, what was the deal with the cabin in general?



Overall, though, I'm very satisfied with the answers they provided, and I consider myself to be pretty demanding as far as answers go. I was very into the mythological aspect of the show, and I feel like they delivered.

[/quote]



1. I think the water below the temple is connected to the cave's water. Since it can also make people not age/die (Jacob), it probably also can make them revive when they're not dead for too long.

2. Some dead person that was manifested by Smokey to trick Locke into thinking that this island is really special for him.

[al kusanagi]

They've already confirmed that the blu-ray release will have new footage and info explaining a few of the lingering questions.

[Ap2000]

[quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='80165' date='May 24 2010, 10:48 PM']They've already confirmed that the blu-ray release will have new footage and info explaining a few of the lingering questions.[/quote]



Well, they also said "all questions will be answered" in the trailers for Season 6. haha

[eri]

[quote name='Zounder' post='80163' date='May 24 2010, 12:45 PM']2. Why did Locke hear "help me" in Jacob's cabin, who said it, and how did they say it? And while we're at it, what was the deal with the cabin in general?[/quote]



But it wasn't Jacob! It was MIB manipulating everyone! They note as much whenever they stress that MIB was a master manipulator, tricking even Ben.

1. The cabin is surrounded by ash - something that contains MIB. They break the circle when they get to the cabin

2. MIB is the one who always used the language that he need "help" "getting free" of the island and Jacob's rules

3. The cabin is damn fucking scary, which means it is eevvvilll, which means it generally points to MIB.



I also disagree that MIB wasn't the "true" enemy. In this case, he was! He knew that to get free of the island, he would have to turn off the cork/button (so to speak) at the bottom of the well. Though he, himself, might not be the main destructive force that would ruin the world - it is his selfish eagerness/curiosity to leave that would trigger the events that would destroy the world.



Someone on lostpedia also theorized that the island is indeed the spiritual center of the world and plugging the cave indeed controlled the flow between that heavenly healing light-water and the scary, red, hellish lava-dryness. Turning "off" the light/water of salvation allows Kate to kill the now mortal MIB. But, Jack has to "reset" the button. Then, in death, they enter nirvana/heaven/whatever.



This show's finale was mind blowing and totally satisfying. I love that, with all the emphasis on flash back, flash forward, time jumps, whatnot...the final place was outside time altogether. It was also a powerful message to us whiny fans clamoring for proper "answers": we can't fix or resolve or determine everything; the message is, you wrap yourself up emotionally and let go haha~



I also admit that sad Hurley made me cry.



MIB's name was released via spoiler and it will show up on the dvd. His name is Samuel

[eri]

[quote name='Fina' post='80154' date='May 24 2010, 09:55 AM']But, as it turns out, David was completely forgotten and had no real plot point other than to make us think the alt universe was real because, oh, look, Jack has a son![/quote]

Really? I thought it was incredibly significant.



The purgatory world is where everyone has to come to terms with their issues and experiences. Jack's imagined son was necessary for him to work through his fucked up relationship with his own father. Parent issues were a major driving theme throughout the entire 6 seasons for almost all of the characters. Hence, it is VERY important when Locke says quite clearly that Jack does not have a son after all. Then, Jack finally comes to peace with Christian - the first obstacle for Jack and his final step in "letting go."

[Zounder]

Haha, I see why they didn't want to reveal his name after so long.... it's so normal, and people would have been expecting so much more. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... hahaha.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hahaha:' />



eri, I actually share some of your theories regarding the cabin, and it's probably what I'm gonna have to go with for my own satisfaction, but the ring of ash bothers me... if MiB was trapped all that time, how did we see Smokey before the ash was broken? I figure there are two ways to look at it: Smokey was trapped -inside- or -outside- the cabin. If he was trapped inside, we couldn't have seen him before season 3, but we did. I originally looked at that ring of ash as a safe place for Jacob to go (Which is why Ilana looked for him there) and it wasn't until we saw that ring of ash broken that we saw MiB in Christian form and Claire (or anybody for that matter) inside the cabin. But the voice was heard before that ring was broken... which means MiB must have been inside. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... nfused.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



On another note, I went through much of season 6 resenting the alt timeline and thinking to myself that no matter what it ended up being, I would probably hate it. But as we got closer to the finale, I forced myself to relax and just trust the writers, and they did not let me down.

[Ap2000]

[quote name='Zounder' post='80170' date='May 25 2010, 02:24 AM']eri, I actually share some of your theories regarding the cabin, and it's probably what I'm gonna have to go with for my own satisfaction, but the ring of ash bothers me... if MiB was trapped all that time, how did we see Smokey before the ash was broken? I figure there are two ways to look at it: Smokey was trapped -inside- or -outside- the cabin. If he was trapped inside, we couldn't have seen him before season 3, but we did. I originally looked at that ring of ash as a safe place for Jacob to go (Which is why Ilana looked for him there) and it wasn't until we saw that ring of ash broken that we saw MiB in Christian form and Claire (or anybody for that matter) inside the cabin. But the voice was heard before that ring was broken... which means MiB must have been inside. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... nfused.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



On another note, I went through much of season 6 resenting the alt timeline and thinking to myself that no matter what it ended up being, I would probably hate it. But as we got closer to the finale, I forced myself to relax and just trust the writers, and they did not let me down.[/quote]



Smokey wasn't able to reach the cabin. Him being trapped there would make no sense.

The ring was accidently broken by somebody (I can't remember who it was - Locke ?) and thus Smokey was able to be there, hence Ilana saying "he [Jacob] hasn't been here for a long time" or something like that.

[Zounder]

[quote name='Ap2000' post='80171' date='May 24 2010, 08:43 PM']Smokey wasn't able to reach the cabin. Him being trapped there would make no sense.

The ring was accidently broken by somebody (I can't remember who it was - Locke ?) and thus Smokey was able to be there, hence Ilana saying "he [Jacob] hasn't been here for a long time" or something like that.[/quote]



That's exactly my point, hence my confusion on the "help me" line.

[Ap2000]

[quote name='Zounder' post='80174' date='May 25 2010, 03:26 AM'][quote name='Ap2000' post='80171' date='May 24 2010, 08:43 PM']Smokey wasn't able to reach the cabin. Him being trapped there would make no sense.

The ring was accidently broken by somebody (I can't remember who it was - Locke ?) and thus Smokey was able to be there, hence Ilana saying "he [Jacob] hasn't been here for a long time" or something like that.[/quote]



That's exactly my point, hence my confusion on the "help me" line.

[/quote]



I don't understand why you're confused about it though.

[al kusanagi]

I still say they were dead the whole time. It makes far more sense and explains every inconsistency. Plus the creators have been proven to be lying whores again and again. Their whole "they were never dead!" thing is just to cover the fact that people figured out that particular point so early on.

[Ap2000]

[quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='80186' date='May 25 2010, 04:02 PM']I still say they were dead the whole time. It makes far more sense and explains every inconsistency. Plus the creators have been proven to be lying whores again and again. Their whole "they were never dead!" thing is just to cover the fact that people figured out that particular point so early on.[/quote]



In the beginning during Season 1 & 2 it was a common theory that the island is actually purgatory.

However, this theory was rather negatively received by many, so a few people think they changed the final outcome of the story to be that the island is not purgatory.



I'm not sure if they did, I never was a supporter of the "the island is purgatory" faction.



What point in time starts "the whole time" in your opinion ?

Imho it's very clear the all died by themselves after the show ended. (except for the ones who were already of course by the season finale)



EDIT:

Oh and here's a Stream for Aloha to Lost.

http://de-lostpedia.blogspot.com/2010/05/aloha-to-lost.html

Just click on the grey "Aloha to Lost anschauen" button in the middle.

[Zounder]

I don't understand why you're confused about it though.

You said (and I agree) "The ring was accidently broken by somebody (I can't remember who it was - Locke ?)" But that didn't happen until -after- the "help me" line, as evidenced by the fact that they showed us the unbroken ring in "The Man Behind The Curtain," and I believe the ring was shown broken in "Cabin Fever." Unless you are suggesting Ben or Locke were the ones who broke it -during- their visit in TMBTC, which I guess would make sense.



Also, I don't see how "They were dead the whole time" makes any sense at all, personally. The ending as it was made perfect sense to me.

[al kusanagi]

The moment they wake up on the island the first time, they're dead. If they're not dead from that point on, and everything on the island happened "for real" then the whole show falls apart for me. From season 1 to 6 I also tried to ignore the whole metaphysical/religious aspect (what with several other shows having done it in the last decade) and looked at it as hard sci-fi that would all be answered in the end. Dharma had brought/uncovered some new super science, possibly alien and was going for some kind of Evangelion-like Human Instrumentality Project deal. Beings like Jacob had powers that let them shape reality with their minds while some characters (Walt and Jack, for example) were unwittingly doing it as well. The smoke monster was a technological/alien construct, what with it sounding like mechanical insects, having energy crackling through it, and since it could apparently be kept at bay with EM fields. Even the alternate reality could be explained (at first) by quantum theory, possibly a divergent timeline created by the bomb. Science, possibly alien technology. I'm cool with that.



Then the ending comes along and screws all that over with the "everyone's dead and gets their final reward" thing, which is one hell of a cop out and renders 80% of what happened on the island both useless and unexplained if it all "really" happened. Virtually none of "all the questions" are answered that way. The show becomes a complete waste of time with a sappy, unearned ending that is based on nothing that happened before it other than the interpersonal character relationships. Some people will say "but it was about the relationships all along!" and I agree, but they could have saved so much time without introducing all those other elements then.



If they were dead from the moment the plane crashed, then it all makes sense. It's all a test, primarily for Jack. You no longer have to question anything with logic since it becomes all about faith. Dharma, lights in the sky, time travel, polar bears, smoke monsters... They all become tests and obstacles the characters need to overcome, most likely constructs born of their troubled pasts, to prove they are "good people" accept their deaths and move on. The island was the proving ground, the AU was the place of final preparation where they finally accept things (the path the the Pearly Gates, if you will), and then they finally move on.



That's the only theory I will accept unless something even better comes along. Otherwise I go from liking the show to hating it. The only way I'd buy that "everything on the island happened" is if the AU was completely removed from the show, most everyone died and a handful made it off in the plane, while Benjy and Hurley remained behind to watch over the island, but I still wouldn't be happy because EVERYTHING is still pretty much unanswered.

[Ap2000]

[quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='80191' date='May 25 2010, 09:59 PM']but they could have saved so much time without introducing all those other elements then.[/quote]



But then it would have been just another generic show.

The best part for me was finding out all the riddles they've set up in the Alternate Reality Games. I've never seen such a good off-show entertainment in my life. There was sooo much to do inbetween season. I remember the Season 3 one, which was the first I participated in, where you had to navigate through a website that's basically your vessel in the ocean and you were trying to "Find 815". And after that I went to boards and sites like lostpedia to read up on all the stuff what other people think and theorize with them about the show and the ARGs.

Unfortunately I didn't see most of The Lost Experience, when it started.



The biggest thing that makes your theory invalid is imho the re-appearing scar on his neck. It's a fragment of when he died, which was from the fight with Flocke.

[Zounder]

and looked at it as hard sci-fi that would all be answered in the end.

I think the show was never meant to be that. I'll admit, I was hoping for more of that kind of action, but in the end the show is about the people. Look back at season 1. Sure, there were some mysteries, but what drew people in (me, at least) was the cast of characters and their own personal lives and secrets and their relationships with eachother.



The ending reminded us that the people were the heart of the show.

If they were dead from the moment the plane crashed, then it all makes sense. It's all a test, primarily for Jack. You no longer have to question anything with logic since it becomes all about faith. Dharma, lights in the sky, time travel, polar bears, smoke monsters... They all become tests and obstacles the characters need to overcome, most likely constructs born of their troubled pasts, to prove they are "good people" accept their deaths and move on. The island was the proving ground, the AU was the place of final preparation where they finally accept things (the path the the Pearly Gates, if you will), and then they finally move on.

You know, I think a lot of this makes sense. But just because the island was a "test" it doesn't mean everybody died. I think that was all just the result of the island being the island... perhaps that's a hint as to what the island really is. Throughout every season, we see the island force people to face their issues (a test, as you said) like Charie and the cocaine, Jack and faith, etc.



But I don't see why you seem to think that any other theory besides "they were all dead the whole time" fails. In other words, what's the problem with this interpretation:

At the most fundamental level, the “sideways world” of season six — the world in which Oceanic 815 landed safely at LAX, was the “afterlife.” Or some imagined experience, or told only from Jack’s perspective, or whatever. Point being, the experiences on the island were the “real” world. And the moments of recognition that took place in “sideways world” were the sudden remembrances of one’s life.

he only way I'd buy that "everything on the island happened" is if the AU was completely removed from the show, most everyone died and a handful made it off in the plane, while Benjy and Hurley remained behind to watch over the island, but I still wouldn't be happy because EVERYTHING is still pretty much unanswered.

Then, if it helps you, ignore the AU! Pretend you never saw it. After all, it's a type of existence that's really hard to define, as Christian says "'Now' has no meaning here" so it's not like it falls somewhere in the timeline. It's simply a spiritual existence, some type of afterlife, purgatory, etc. If it help you, just think of it as exactly as you said: "most everyone died and a handful made it off in the plane, while Benjy and Hurley remained behind to watch over the island" because that's exactly what happened!



If you feel "everything" was pretty much unanswered, then I'm sorry you feel that way. I guess it's different for everyone, but I felt like they answered enough. They didn't spell things out for us, but I feel like they gave us enough pieces to put together theories. For example, the sickness is never explained, but because of the nature of smokey and the cave we can infer or theorize that the sickness is smokey taking the light out of the victim. Another example is pre-Jacob/MiB history. We saw Egyptian writing int he cave, meaning it all started with them. They had pictures of Smokey in the cave from Dead is Dead, meaning another smokey existed before MiB, and that's how their fake mother knew what would happen inside the cave.



On another note... here's an interesting tidbit: Ilana was intended to be the daughter of Jacob, but they couldn't fit it into the storyline and decided to change it. I would have liked to see where they were gonna go with that! Maybe then, Ilana wouldn't have had such an anti-climactic death.

[al kusanagi]

I still have trouble buying there being both scientific and mystical explanations for it all. I don't think they handled it well enough to agree to both.



However, the show is so damn open to interpretation that most anything could work. For example, in my sci-fi theory where Jack is one of the few key individuals to the island that can alter reality, the AU may specifically have been a creation of his mind, either just a fantasy world or an actual tangent reality where he is able to save everyone since he is unable to do so in the real world. He saves them all in the AU and then dies happily on the island.

[Zounder]

[quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='80195' date='May 25 2010, 05:06 PM']However, the show is so damn open to interpretation that most anything could work. For example, in my sci-fi theory where Jack is one of the few key individuals to the island that can alter reality, the AU may specifically have been a creation of his mind, either just a fantasy world or an actual tangent reality where he is able to save everyone since he is unable to do so in the real world. He saves them all in the AU and then dies happily on the island.[/quote]



That sounds pretty interesting. See? Other theories do make sense! <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... umbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



I remember when I first started looking up Lost stuff online, it was towards the end of season 2, and there were ALL kinds of awesome Dharma related theories online, and when Jacob was introduced, things got really interesting. I remember one theory where Jacob was a child and used as part of a Dharma experiment gone bad, and he was stuck as a bodiless entity. One thing the writers were good at is fooling all of us: When Jacob was introduced, I think very few of us were expecting things to turn out the way they did.

[Ap2000]

[quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='80195' date='May 25 2010, 11:06 PM']I still have trouble buying there being both scientific and mystical explanations for it all. I don't think they handled it well enough to agree to both.



However, the show is so damn open to interpretation that most anything could work. For example, in my sci-fi theory where Jack is one of the few key individuals to the island that can alter reality, the AU may specifically have been a creation of his mind, either just a fantasy world or an actual tangent reality where he is able to save everyone since he is unable to do so in the real world. He saves them all in the AU and then dies happily on the island.[/quote]



You mean in the way that he imagines the stuff that happens in the seconds before he dies ? (Jacob's Ladder style)

I'm not sure, that sounds far-fetched to me...



For me the flash sideways will always be the thing that Matthew Fox says in the beginning of Aloha to Lost (you should watch at least the first ~10 mins), a kind of afterlife. Something that happened at the end of everything, when they all have died, at some point in time. Why do you find it so hard to believe ?

[Zounder]

[quote name='Ap2000' post='80197' date='May 25 2010, 05:25 PM']For me the flash sideways will always be the thing that Matthew Fox says in the beginning of Aloha to Lost (you should watch at least the first ~10 mins), a kind of afterlife. Something that happened at the end of everything, when they all have died, at some point in time. Why do you find it so hard to believe ?[/quote]



Agreed.



Those alternate endings on Aloha to Lost sucked, by the way. I was expecting real alternate endings, not Jeff Probst.

[al kusanagi]

[quote name='Zounder' post='80198' date='May 25 2010, 05:37 PM']Those alternate endings on Aloha to Lost sucked, by the way. I was expecting real alternate endings, not Jeff Probst.[/quote]



Yeah, that pissed me off at first too since I was expecting actual show stuff. It did get pretty awesome once Bob Newhart showed up though.

[Ap2000]

[quote name='Zounder' post='80198' date='May 25 2010, 11:37 PM'][quote name='Ap2000' post='80197' date='May 25 2010, 05:25 PM']For me the flash sideways will always be the thing that Matthew Fox says in the beginning of Aloha to Lost (you should watch at least the first ~10 mins), a kind of afterlife. Something that happened at the end of everything, when they all have died, at some point in time. Why do you find it so hard to believe ?[/quote]



Agreed.



Those alternate endings on Aloha to Lost sucked, by the way. I was expecting real alternate endings, not Jeff Probst.

[/quote]



According to a comment on lostpedia the actual alternate endings will be included in the DVD release.

[Zounder]

Another interesting tidbit: Don't read too much into the plane crash scenery at the end.

[Zounder]

double post, but this is worth it:

[Ap2000]

[quote name='Zounder' post='80238' date='May 27 2010, 05:57 AM']double post, but this is worth it:



[/quote]



Saw that on Kimmel. haha



I also saw this, which was an interesting "comparison", since I also absolutely love that anime.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2235/1274918091879.jpg

[eri]

Another update:

the dvd will have an extra 15 min scene showing Hurley and Ben's later adventures on the island!



Damn those producers really know how to get our money haha.

[Ap2000]

[quote name='eri' post='80275' date='May 27 2010, 08:52 PM']Another update:

the dvd will have an extra 15 min scene showing Hurley and Ben's later adventures on the island!



Damn those producers really know how to get our money haha.[/quote]



SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT



Best DVD release ever !



I'm so downloading that DVD-R day one.

[al kusanagi]

Two cute girls (and a ukelele) ask the most pressing unanswered Lost question!