Female Fans

[aine]

[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' timestamp='1368745960' post='152033']

My main thing lately has been trying to figure out why the overseas fandom for H!P had this HUGE influx is retarded little kids around the 2007-current period. (...)



A lot of you guys seem around this age, so hopefully you have some input.[/quote]

Gee Newtype, you sure know how to win people over with your words. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... lleyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rolleyes:' />



To me it's yet another iteration of September that never ended. It's futile to complain that your once obscure hobby is gaining some momentum. In fact I don't mind what you call the "retarded little kids" at all. They can be educated into valuable fans, or will just grow out of it eventually. Or just stick to H!O where I don't need to see them. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... #>/meh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';/' /> It's the self-proclaimed Western "hardcore wota" that make me puke inside. I had the displeasure of having to be in their close vicinity during H!P's (and AKB's for that matter) outings to Europe, and all I can say is that they need to be shot on sight. But I digress.



I think the fact that H!P gained popularity in the West is a sum of a number of factors: a) an already established and active H!P fandom who's been following the group(s) since 1999 basically, b) the progressing mainstreamization of anime and by association the rest of Japanese pop-culture in the West, c) the Internets and technological progress allowing for next-day anime fansubs to be released and distributed, often with their tie-in soundtracks and OP/ED singles which again served as grassroots work to popularize Japanese pop music as an entity of its own, finally d) Youtube as others have already pointed out, which made watching all them funny Hello! Morning clips as easy as clicking a link, instead of downloading "mari_yaguchi_getting_anal_by_a_large_dog.mpg" from clunky DCC fservs on EFnet.



All this can be overlaid with UF being - back then and now - the pioneers in opening to and catering to the Western audiences. They may not be perfect at it, but for many years now they were making little nods to the West, European concerts and album releases and English subbed MV on Youtube being just the most recent examples. Other groups/agencies may have surpassed them in sales and popularity, but they basically just re-use and improve on what UF invented (or brought to the J-pop world to be fair) with a lot of trial-and-error. IMO.

[tsukinobyouin]

Re: Aeug's question:



I think kira makes a good point about "why H!P" - accessibility.



The influx of immature fans is pretty universal. I'm also really active in the Johnny's fan community and we have just as many immature weeaboos. I would say in all Jpop fandoms, it's most definitely not just white kids though. I think fans from South America and East/Southeast Asia come close to dominating the foreign fandom community. I can't speak for how people in those countries get into idols, but in Asia especially they have even easier access.



But in very generalized terms, I think it comes down to a combination of these things:



1. The "cool Japan" boom bringing in an influx of people in general.

2. A general increase in idiocy over the internet. The rise of places like 2ch/4ch/reddit/etc where anonymity allows people to act like assholes or idiots. Sites like FB/Twitter/Tumblr making communication across fandoms much easier, but also making everyone feel like they're bffs with random strangers. The behavior becomes self perpetuating, because young kids coming in want to emulate the seemingly "cool kids" in their fandom. I definitely felt that way when I was 13ish and first getting into anime/Jpop/Kpop xD

3. Accessibility.



Another part of #3 is that foreign fan communities always have a distorted view of what's popular in Japan. I remember back in the day foreign fans looooved Ranma 1/2, but it was never that big in Japan. Yet things like Kaibutsu-kun, Lupin, Chibimaruko-chan, etc are much less known in the west, despite being insanely popular in Japan. It's all about what got licensed and broadcast on TV abroad back during the original anime boom. You remember those times - when we had to walk uphill in the snow and pay people to get VHS subs. Similarly EXILE is super popular in Japan but you don't see huge foreign fan communities devoted to them. Part of that comes down to cultural differences. What works in Japan just might not work in other countries. Part of it is the "filling a void" factor that Petit mentioned earlier (we don't have much like idol groups abroad, but we have plenty of standard pop and dance music). But I think the largest part is just what has subs, what's easy to download/stream, and what's easy to find on places like iTunes.



Edit: Oops, aine kind of beat me too it. But I totally forgot about all of H!P's appearances at anime conventions and such overseas. That's a huge factor.

[AEUGNewtype]

Also, it's much much easier to get access to H!P videos compared to say, Perfume (most were removed almost instantly) or a Johnny's group (near impossible to find unless you knew where to look) or an Avex artist (also removed very quickly). This was before most of them had their own Youtube channels and uploaded their own videos to Youtube, and even then they usually upload "short" versions. H!P uploaded everything when they got their YT channels (though nowadays not as much).



This also contributes to how it's really easy to get into K-pop artists. They have very dedicated fans who can compile so much information and get you to know the members easily. I learned all of Super Junior in a day, just thanks to fans referring me to things. And their videos are really easy to find.



Anyway I think it's not just that a lot of younger people who joined the fandom around that time (I'm sure older fans joined too), but rather that older fans left the fandom around that time so when the new fans joined they became an apparent majority. I don't think it's a phenomenon you're witnessing, it's probably just a recency illusion.

Very good point, I think the creepily devoted fans/communities can play a big part in this, since they often organize so much of a group's content into something that's easy to digest for an outsider (non-Japanese speaker) and that helps accessibility a lot.

Gee Newtype, you sure know how to win people over with your words. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... lleyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rolleyes:' />

That's not my aim and never has been <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... lleyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rolleyes:' />

To me it's yet another iteration of September that never ended.

I don't think its quite that simple, but that's an interesting reference, I had never heard about that.

I think the fact that H!P gained popularity in the West is a sum of a number of factors: a) an already established and active H!P fandom who's been following the group(s) since 1999 basically, b) the progressing mainstreamization of anime and by association the rest of Japanese pop-culture in the West, c) the Internets and technological progress allowing for next-day anime fansubs to be released and distributed, often with their tie-in soundtracks and OP/ED singles which again served as grassroots work to popularize Japanese pop music as an entity of its own, finally d) Youtube as others have already pointed out, which made watching all them funny Hello! Morning clips as easy as clicking a link, instead of downloading "mari_yaguchi_getting_anal_by_a_large_dog.mpg" from clunky DCC fservs on EFnet.

Yeah, once again, internet accessibility. Signs are pointing towards the same answers.

All this can be overlaid with UF being - back then and now - the pioneers in opening to and catering to the Western audiences. They may not be perfect at it, but for many years now they were making little nods to the West, European concerts and album releases and English subbed MV on Youtube being just the most recent examples. Other groups/agencies may have surpassed them in sales and popularity, but they basically just re-use and improve on what UF invented (or brought to the J-pop world to be fair) with a lot of trial-and-error. IMO.

This I don't really agree with, since this subbing thing is so recent, it doesn't really factor into the question here, and their overseas appearances have been pretty few and far between up until maybe last year when they started those little bullshit handshake appearances with like 3 members at each session. I probably should've capped the time period I was referring to at around 2011/early 2012 to better pin down when I was talking about. I don't think too many random people who just happened to be attending a certain anime convention would've seen or heard about them through that and gotten full-on obsessed with the group. Sure that may have happened to a few people, but the likelihood of it being a widespread thing seems unlikely.

2. A general increase in idiocy over the internet. The rise of places like 2ch/4ch/reddit/etc where anonymity allows people to act like assholes or idiots. Sites like FB/Twitter/Tumblr making communication across fandoms much easier, but also making everyone feel like they're bffs with random strangers. The behavior becomes self perpetuating, because young kids coming in want to emulate the seemingly "cool kids" in their fandom. I definitely felt that way when I was 13ish and first getting into anime/Jpop/Kpop xD



Another part of #3 is that foreign fan communities always have a distorted view of what's popular in Japan. I remember back in the day foreign fans looooved Ranma 1/2, but it was never that big in Japan. Yet things like Kaibutsu-kun, Lupin, Chibimaruko-chan, etc are much less known in the west, despite being insanely popular in Japan. It's all about what got licensed and broadcast on TV abroad back during the original anime boom. You remember those times - when we had to walk uphill in the snow and pay people to get VHS subs. Similarly EXILE is super popular in Japan but you don't see huge foreign fan communities devoted to them. Part of that comes down to cultural differences. What works in Japan just might not work in other countries. Part of it is the "filling a void" factor that Petit mentioned earlier (we don't have much like idol groups abroad, but we have plenty of standard pop and dance music). But I think the largest part is just what has subs, what's easy to download/stream, and what's easy to find on places like iTunes.

Good points as well. I think most signs are really just pointing to how popular the internet and internet mentality has gotten with younger kids in the last 7-8 years, with a couple of these other influences thrown in there to speed the osmosis process of fandom along.

[makky]

Not to detract from the thread too much, since I am female and have liked Hello!Pro since THE MANPOWER!!! was the new single....

AEUG, I have been thinking about what you named exactly for a few years now, and I agree, it's part of the reason H!P isn't as close to my heart as it used to be...



But seriously, I read through this thread and realized how young some of the posters here are and it makes me feel like one of those disgusting old lady wota...

I can't decide if I'm pleased at being old and disgusting and therefore one of the "elite" as per the originally cited article, or if I just feel old and disgusting...



I miss when Nakazawa was still in the group!



EDIT: Has anyone factored anime cons into this as well? By that all I mean is that anime conventions seem to be cool with all the youngsters (and much more accessible/cheaper than they used to be in my day!!) now and that they have Jpop guests at the larger ones? This might not even be a thing that should be factored in, but it struck me after I posted this and thought I would include it.

[freezingkiss]

I actually initially found it weird that men in their abundance liked H!P and idol groups, but it was 2004 and I barely knew the ways of the perve world yet.



I find this question insulting actually, silly wota, we like it for the music and the pretties, the dancing and the personalities, and because 'becoming their girlfriend' isn't our main motive so we can be more casual about it and idgaf when they get into scandals.



Also I like Berryz Koubou better than Morning Musume and have since 2007 but I presume this doesn't matter because apparently all H!P means is bloody Morning Museum.

[Anderei]

I also got into idols around 04, and since I was only about 10, I also thought it was really odd that guys would be into groups like Morning Musume. Back then they didn't seem like something I thought anyone other than a girl would find appealing.

[AEUGNewtype]

Not to detract from the thread too much, since I am female and have liked Hello!Pro since THE MANPOWER!!! was the new single....

AEUG, I have been thinking about what you named exactly for a few years now, and I agree, it's part of the reason H!P isn't as close to my heart as it used to be...

Interesting to hear at least someone else can relate to this besides myself, but sad at the same time that it is noticeable.

EDIT: Has anyone factored anime cons into this as well? By that all I mean is that anime conventions seem to be cool with all the youngsters (and much more accessible/cheaper than they used to be in my day!!) now and that they have Jpop guests at the larger ones? This might not even be a thing that should be factored in, but it struck me after I posted this and thought I would include it.

I did mention the anime con thing in some of my posts, but it just seems like that's a much more indirect and unlikely reason to cause a lot of people to suddenly get into H!P. They've only done a total of 3 performances in the US and just a few others in Europe (not including stupid handshake events) so I don't think that's really enough to catch a lot of people. Unless you're just referring to the fact that a lot of cons in general are getting Jpop/idol related guests more often now so more people see it around YouTube and stuff after initial exposure? Not 100% sure what you meant.

Also I like Berryz Koubou better than Morning Musume and have since 2007 but I presume this doesn't matter because apparently all H!P means is bloody Morning Museum.

<img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... umbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

[Melon]

I knew about the pervy side, hell, I used to make fun of those "30 y/o wotas" but I'm approaching that age and I still love idols too! <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... >/rofl.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



And H!P fans are more organized and there are a ton of people (a large majority from this BBS even!) that are providing up to date information and translating their blogs, subbing the now rare appearences, providing ways to get Japan-only merch, ect. I think it's a better time to be a fan, even if I think the better music was from earlier in H!P history. I can hardly find an online community dedicated to Momoiro Clover, even though I love them more than H!P right now and they're bigger than MM is currently. I can't speak for the AKB community since I was a never a part of it. But from what I've noticed, the H!P community is huge and fosters newcomers and helps them along and sort of aides them to the "stan/wota" level. Most other band communities seem to be limited to tumblr, livejournal, ect. that are large, but don't foster the same sort of thing forums do.

[yuzuriha]

[quote name='Petit Hulk' timestamp='1369071411' post='152327']

I knew about the pervy side, hell, I used to make fun of those "30 y/o wotas" but I'm approaching that age and I still love idols too! <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... >/rofl.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



And H!P fans are more organized and there are a ton of people (a large majority from this BBS even!) that are providing up to date information and translating their blogs, subbing the now rare appearences, providing ways to get Japan-only merch, ect. I think it's a better time to be a fan, even if I think the better music was from earlier in H!P history. I can hardly find an online community dedicated to Momoiro Clover, even though I love them more than H!P right now and they're bigger than MM is currently. I can't speak for the AKB community since I was a never a part of it. But from what I've noticed, the H!P community is huge and fosters newcomers and helps them along and sort of aides them to the "stan/wota" level. Most other band communities seem to be limited to tumblr, livejournal, ect. that are large, but don't foster the same sort of thing forums do.

[/quote]



OT but relevant to your post: I've considered approaching the mod at momoiroclover.net about doing some kind of blog translation thing for momoclo...but then I saw how much Momoka writes every day and I don't think I'd ever have the time. o_O

[AEUGNewtype]

I knew about the pervy side, hell, I used to make fun of those "30 y/o wotas" but I'm approaching that age and I still love idols too! <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... >/rofl.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

Yeah, I kinda wonder if those older wota who were all into MM during the olden days had actually been idol fans since the 80s or 90s and had just been following them for most of their lives or if a lot of new fans are actually of that age in Japan. I'm guessing the former, but we may never know. I'm starting to feel the same way, just a couple years away from 30 and idols are still a huge part of my life (though, not in the same pervy way that it surely is for a lot of Japanese wota..)

I can't speak for the AKB community since I was a never a part of it. But from what I've noticed, the H!P community is huge and fosters newcomers and helps them along and sort of aides them to the "stan/wota" level.

The AKB community is actually very organized, but the forums and other groups have never been quite as active as the H!P ones have been, especially since by the time AKB came to exist, H!P had already been around for a decade and the boom of little shits getting into H!P had already hit pretty hard, so AKB's community growth was slower, and overall not as active as H!P, but it is still somewhat strong.



Very good point about that, though, like I said before, these H!P communities just seem to usher and almost egg people on into being obsessive stans, since its kind of a hive-mind mentality and they want to fit in, and the message the community gives them is along the lines of "to fit in, you have to be obsessed and stalk every single little aspect of everything they do and buy all their merchandise, otherwise you're not a true fan!"



Its really sad how opposite this is from the values message we gave to new members that this BBS was basically built on back in the day. We were pretty frequently assholes to people, but the only real rules we had were 1.) don't be a weeaboo 2.) post things that make sense and are readable 3.) be respectful of others and the subject material we're talking about, even if being assholish.

OT but relevant to your post: I've considered approaching the mod at momoiroclover.net about doing some kind of blog translation thing for momoclo...but then I saw how much Momoka writes every day and I don't think I'd ever have the time. o_O

It kinda saddens me that so many idol groups' output is limited to shitty, nonsense blogs where very little of value is ever actually said (or G+, in AKB's case.) Most idol blogs are literally a bunch of nonsense and look retarded when they're translated, I really can't get into following them. You can only read so many consecutive days of "I WOKE UP TODAY, I'M DOING MY MAKEUP ♪♪~~~♥~~~♪♪" or "WE TOTALLY HAVE A CONCERT TODAY! PLEASE COME TO IT KUDASAI FAN-SAN! LOOK AT MY CUTE SHOES!"



I love that a lot more idols are starting to get on Twitter lately and sometimes doing a lot more than just advertising their appearances and stuff, some of them will actually interact with fans or post personal thoughts and observations, etc.



I'm really happy to be a follower of most of the idol groups who currently have lots of TV coverage and lots of great content to offer, it makes being a fan much more rewarding than having to constantly dig to find things of interest every once in a while like H!P.

[makky]

[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' timestamp='1369067841' post='152325']

I did mention the anime con thing in some of my posts, but it just seems like that's a much more indirect and unlikely reason to cause a lot of people to suddenly get into H!P. They've only done a total of 3 performances in the US and just a few others in Europe (not including stupid handshake events) so I don't think that's really enough to catch a lot of people. Unless you're just referring to the fact that a lot of cons in general are getting Jpop/idol related guests more often now so more people see it around YouTube and stuff after initial exposure? Not 100% sure what you meant.

[/quote]



Upon closer inspection, you're right, you totally did. I was more referring to how there are more idol/Jpop guests at cons now so exposure, things happening that way. Sorry I was kind of unclear, I totally posted that before going to bed...