<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Petit Hulk" data-cid="153175" data-time="1369589408">
<div>
How about emotionally callous uncontrolled libido woman? Because I think that describes who and what she is.
Of course, let's not disparage the model who slept with/agreed to sleep with a married woman. I guess he's the innocent party to her fiendish whims.
</div>
</blockquote>
No one gives a fuck about him in much the same way no one gave a fuck about the "maid" that Arnold Schwarzenegger fucked in his own bed. Apparently she was just an innocent 3rd party to Arnie's fiendish whims, despite having looked Maria Shriver in eyes and playing with their kids every day for 10 years. Yet she still fucked Maria's husband in Maria's own bed behind her back. Arnie was the monster and Maria was the victim, period. The moral of this story? Nobody gives a fuck about the "other" person, regardless of whether that person is male or female.
And absolutely nobody tried to "understand" what might have driven Arnie to cheat. Nobody urged anyone to consider that we don't know all the facts surrounding their marriage. Arnie was a piece of shit, end of story, full fucking stop. Which is the correct reading of that story.
If it's good enough for Arnie, it's good enough for Mari Yaguchi.
Mari the Cheater
Moderators: testacles_4, Shoujo Q, momoirosaya
Re: Mari the Cheater
Last edited by JPope on Sun May 26, 2013 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mari the Cheater
[quote="JPope"]
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Petit Hulk" data-cid="153175" data-time="1369589408">
<div>
How about emotionally callous uncontrolled libido woman? Because I think that describes who and what she is.
Of course, let's not disparage the model who slept with/agreed to sleep with a married woman. I guess he's the innocent party to her fiendish whims.
[/quote]
No one gives a fuck about him in much the same way no one gave a fuck about the "maid" that Arnold Schwarzenegger fucked in his own bed. Apparently she was just an innocent 3rd party to Arnie's fiendish whims, despite having looked Maria Shriver in eyes and playing with their kids every day for 10 years. Yet she still fucked Maria's husband in Maria's own bed behind her back. Arnie was the monster and Maria was the victim, period. The moral of this story? Nobody gives a fuck about the "other" person, regardless of whether that person is male or female.
And absolutely nobody tried to "understand" what might have driven Arnie to cheat. Nobody urged anyone to consider that we don't know all the facts surrounding their marriage. Arnie was a piece of shit, end of story, full fucking stop. Which is the correct reading of that story.
If it's good enough for Arnie, it's good enough for Mari Yaguchi.
</div>
</blockquote>
I was never defending Mari, like I said earlier, I think 99.9% of relationships in entertainment are a farce and holding them to the same standards as "one of us" is ridiculous because relationships are more than that in the game of media exposure. Even having children now is something that can be seen as "career boosting".
But I also hate how just one party is the "bad guy". If I sleep with a married man, I am just as much of a problem as he is, and just as morally deficient. In other words, Mari and that model are assholes, full stop.
Arnie may have used his "power" and "status" to seduce his maid, but the maid is still a bitch too. It's not hard to see why Arnie did what he did, he's a powerful man who is used to getting what he wants when he wants. No one tries to understand that because we already know. It's a man's world, the entertainment industry is run by men, so when a man does something like this no one gives a fuck or puts it on as a "oh men are being men" quandry.
Maybe their marriage was on the rocks, but instead of the bad publicity that came with divorce and/or the loss of a comfortable lifestyle on the other end, they stayed together. Did Marina know he slept around? I'm willing to bet she did, or suspected it at the very least. She's not that stupid and we all know that Arnold's not a genius. There are plenty of reasons to stay together regardless, and when you're a celebrity (then politician, which imo is even higher standard-wise than entertainment) certain things are tied to your personal life.
No one cared about the maid because she was a nobody. I bet her family did, or any important man she was with did. She's just as much of a bitch too, but since she's not as big of a name or we don't know her as well means she gets to play victim? Bullshit.
Unless it was non-consentual, both parties are equal assholes.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Petit Hulk" data-cid="153175" data-time="1369589408">
<div>
How about emotionally callous uncontrolled libido woman? Because I think that describes who and what she is.
Of course, let's not disparage the model who slept with/agreed to sleep with a married woman. I guess he's the innocent party to her fiendish whims.
[/quote]
No one gives a fuck about him in much the same way no one gave a fuck about the "maid" that Arnold Schwarzenegger fucked in his own bed. Apparently she was just an innocent 3rd party to Arnie's fiendish whims, despite having looked Maria Shriver in eyes and playing with their kids every day for 10 years. Yet she still fucked Maria's husband in Maria's own bed behind her back. Arnie was the monster and Maria was the victim, period. The moral of this story? Nobody gives a fuck about the "other" person, regardless of whether that person is male or female.
And absolutely nobody tried to "understand" what might have driven Arnie to cheat. Nobody urged anyone to consider that we don't know all the facts surrounding their marriage. Arnie was a piece of shit, end of story, full fucking stop. Which is the correct reading of that story.
If it's good enough for Arnie, it's good enough for Mari Yaguchi.
</div>
</blockquote>
I was never defending Mari, like I said earlier, I think 99.9% of relationships in entertainment are a farce and holding them to the same standards as "one of us" is ridiculous because relationships are more than that in the game of media exposure. Even having children now is something that can be seen as "career boosting".
But I also hate how just one party is the "bad guy". If I sleep with a married man, I am just as much of a problem as he is, and just as morally deficient. In other words, Mari and that model are assholes, full stop.
Arnie may have used his "power" and "status" to seduce his maid, but the maid is still a bitch too. It's not hard to see why Arnie did what he did, he's a powerful man who is used to getting what he wants when he wants. No one tries to understand that because we already know. It's a man's world, the entertainment industry is run by men, so when a man does something like this no one gives a fuck or puts it on as a "oh men are being men" quandry.
Maybe their marriage was on the rocks, but instead of the bad publicity that came with divorce and/or the loss of a comfortable lifestyle on the other end, they stayed together. Did Marina know he slept around? I'm willing to bet she did, or suspected it at the very least. She's not that stupid and we all know that Arnold's not a genius. There are plenty of reasons to stay together regardless, and when you're a celebrity (then politician, which imo is even higher standard-wise than entertainment) certain things are tied to your personal life.
No one cared about the maid because she was a nobody. I bet her family did, or any important man she was with did. She's just as much of a bitch too, but since she's not as big of a name or we don't know her as well means she gets to play victim? Bullshit.
Unless it was non-consentual, both parties are equal assholes.
Re: Mari the Cheater
[quote="Petit Hulk"]No one cared about the maid because she was a nobody. I bet her family did, or any important man she was with did. She's just as much of a bitch too, but since she's not as big of a name or we don't know her as well means she gets to play victim? Bullshit.
Unless it was non-consentual, both parties are equal assholes.
[/quote]
Oh FFS...
When I said "no one gives a fuck" about Mari's model playtoy or Arnold's mattress maid, I thought it was obvious that I was talking about all the people who don't know who they are based on anything other than the extramarital affair. Is it really necessary to point out that people who actualy fucking know them IRL might care? Really? Is that the nit we're going to pick to try to prove some over-arching point?
Riddle me this? Why is it when famous females are caught cheating on their husbands, we are cautioned against "slut-shaming" or passing judgement since we don't know all of the particulars of their marriage, or worse, that the husband might have been sleeping around as well (even though we have zero proof, it's fair game to speculate.) But when a famous male is caught cheating, we are innundated with loud, angry female voices lecturing us about how this is only further proof that men are scumbags, and PATRIARCHY!!1!!! There are zero voices cautioning us not to pass judgement on the man, or wait for full details surrounding the condition of their marraige, and absolutely NO speculation that the wife might have been cheating, too. It's all "He's a fucking pig," all day, every day.
Which is as it should be. Such men should be shamed. So should such women. Mari should be shamed. She's damn well earned it. Your "well, they're celebrities, so it's different" argument is just a big ball of fail. It just is. Don't get fucking get married, then. Don't make a vow to another person that you can't keep, and if you discover that you can't keep it, do the honorable thing and divorce him first. Being a celebrity does not come with an Extramarital-Sex-Is-Less-Shameful Card. Because it isn't any less shameful.
Unless it was non-consentual, both parties are equal assholes.
[/quote]
Oh FFS...
When I said "no one gives a fuck" about Mari's model playtoy or Arnold's mattress maid, I thought it was obvious that I was talking about all the people who don't know who they are based on anything other than the extramarital affair. Is it really necessary to point out that people who actualy fucking know them IRL might care? Really? Is that the nit we're going to pick to try to prove some over-arching point?
Riddle me this? Why is it when famous females are caught cheating on their husbands, we are cautioned against "slut-shaming" or passing judgement since we don't know all of the particulars of their marriage, or worse, that the husband might have been sleeping around as well (even though we have zero proof, it's fair game to speculate.) But when a famous male is caught cheating, we are innundated with loud, angry female voices lecturing us about how this is only further proof that men are scumbags, and PATRIARCHY!!1!!! There are zero voices cautioning us not to pass judgement on the man, or wait for full details surrounding the condition of their marraige, and absolutely NO speculation that the wife might have been cheating, too. It's all "He's a fucking pig," all day, every day.
Which is as it should be. Such men should be shamed. So should such women. Mari should be shamed. She's damn well earned it. Your "well, they're celebrities, so it's different" argument is just a big ball of fail. It just is. Don't get fucking get married, then. Don't make a vow to another person that you can't keep, and if you discover that you can't keep it, do the honorable thing and divorce him first. Being a celebrity does not come with an Extramarital-Sex-Is-Less-Shameful Card. Because it isn't any less shameful.
Last edited by JPope on Sun May 26, 2013 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jpope On Jpop! blog
Re: Mari the Cheater
[quote="Petit Hulk"]
I was never defending Mari, like I said earlier, I think 99.9% of relationships in entertainment are a farce and holding them to the same standards as "one of us" is ridiculous because relationships are more than that in the game of media exposure. Even having children now is something that can be seen as "career boosting".
[/quote]
That's not really something that makes the whole affair any better, though.
They very well should be held to the same standards as everybody, maybe even moreso, because they have a kind of role model position through their fame. It certainly doesn't mean they have all kinds of liberties, which is the vibe I'm getting from you.
I was never defending Mari, like I said earlier, I think 99.9% of relationships in entertainment are a farce and holding them to the same standards as "one of us" is ridiculous because relationships are more than that in the game of media exposure. Even having children now is something that can be seen as "career boosting".
[/quote]
That's not really something that makes the whole affair any better, though.
They very well should be held to the same standards as everybody, maybe even moreso, because they have a kind of role model position through their fame. It certainly doesn't mean they have all kinds of liberties, which is the vibe I'm getting from you.
Travel back in time through the haze of memories that aren't your own
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If you say run, I'll run with you
If you say hide, we'll hide
and melodies frozen in a particular place in history..
If you say run, I'll run with you
If you say hide, we'll hide
Re: Mari the Cheater
I'm not jumping into the rest, but I'm 100% with JPope in that, yes, Mari is a disgusting person for this and, yes, she absolutely deserves to be called on this.
The comments on the first page of this thread talking about the state of her marriage bother me intensely. I'm sad marriage is in such a state for people to excuse cheating. I've told every boyfriend I've been with that he can put his dick in anything he wants, just have the decency to break things off with me first. That's respect IMO, and that's what cheaters lack.
BUT, having said that, I also think Petit's right in that celebrity marriages are not the same as ours. That doesn't make Mari less of a horrible person in the slightest, but it's something to consider when it comes to why she may not have gotten a divorce first. I'm also not sure, but it seems possible that both could've been cheating, known the other is cheating, and just never confronted the other. Finding Mari could've put it to the forefront and made them finally confront a failing marriage or something. I have no idea, but just throwing it out there that not having an open marriage doesn't necessarily mean they weren't okay with the other cheating as long as they didn't have to see it/confront it directly.
The comments on the first page of this thread talking about the state of her marriage bother me intensely. I'm sad marriage is in such a state for people to excuse cheating. I've told every boyfriend I've been with that he can put his dick in anything he wants, just have the decency to break things off with me first. That's respect IMO, and that's what cheaters lack.
BUT, having said that, I also think Petit's right in that celebrity marriages are not the same as ours. That doesn't make Mari less of a horrible person in the slightest, but it's something to consider when it comes to why she may not have gotten a divorce first. I'm also not sure, but it seems possible that both could've been cheating, known the other is cheating, and just never confronted the other. Finding Mari could've put it to the forefront and made them finally confront a failing marriage or something. I have no idea, but just throwing it out there that not having an open marriage doesn't necessarily mean they weren't okay with the other cheating as long as they didn't have to see it/confront it directly.
Re: Mari the Cheater
Unless your a murderer no one is "disgusting". She and all cheaters for that matter just made really poor decisions. You guys need to calm down. It's not like she hurt us in anyway.
Made by Haru!
Re: Mari the Cheater
No one's offended by her actions in a personal way. AKA, I don't need to be hurt in any way by someone's actions to find them disgusting. I am calm; someone also doesn't need to be emotional to have strong opinions on something.
I have strong opinions about cheating. I mean, to bring up something I know people will draw comparisons with and say "Are you really comparing A with B?," I don't have a single shit for cats, wouldn't be emotionally upset hearing someone's kicking cats, but would be able to calmly and rationally conclude someone kicking cats is a disgusting person.
This is just a difference of how strongly we each individually feel about cheating in general, and has nothing to do with Mari. Unless we're talking about a wife being held in a marriage against her will, there is no excuse for cheating. Period. Yes, there are such things as gray morality, and I can think of cases where cheating may be what someone needs to feel right again, etc. etc. But no matter the story, the point I'm making (and I THINK Jpop is making), is that cheating is always wrong and a cheater is therefore a person lacking respect for the other party. To me, someone who lacks respect for someone else is disgusting.
I have strong opinions about cheating. I mean, to bring up something I know people will draw comparisons with and say "Are you really comparing A with B?," I don't have a single shit for cats, wouldn't be emotionally upset hearing someone's kicking cats, but would be able to calmly and rationally conclude someone kicking cats is a disgusting person.
This is just a difference of how strongly we each individually feel about cheating in general, and has nothing to do with Mari. Unless we're talking about a wife being held in a marriage against her will, there is no excuse for cheating. Period. Yes, there are such things as gray morality, and I can think of cases where cheating may be what someone needs to feel right again, etc. etc. But no matter the story, the point I'm making (and I THINK Jpop is making), is that cheating is always wrong and a cheater is therefore a person lacking respect for the other party. To me, someone who lacks respect for someone else is disgusting.
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AEUGNewtype
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Re: Mari the Cheater
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="aine" data-cid="152759" data-time="1369298876">That's pretty disappointing though, and more so because she didn't seem the type to do that at all to me. But what do we know.</blockquote>
Main point of the entire discussion has been bolded.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Petit Hulk" data-cid="152942" data-time="1369393364">Ain't nothing wrong with loving D. You just can't love more than one D in a relationship xD</blockquote>
Oh Petit, you are an absolute joy
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Petit Hulk" data-cid="153137" data-time="1369578904">These are celebrities though. The circumstances are different. There's these "oh they're just like us" theories and that's complete bullshit. Sure, there are people who stay together despite lack of love in the real world, but once a celebrity is married, their relationship is part of their brand. The entire reason why we have so many details about the situation (and not a "They are getting divorced because of an affair") is because someone knew that they could increase the brand power by releasing the details, whether it be the celebrity themself, the company, or someone close. edit - I hate saying this over and over, but I'm not excusing it, but in the fickle world of celebrity, I also know the bottom line is money and maintaining the current lifestyle they're in is important.</blockquote>
This, seriously.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Mugi" data-cid="153226" data-time="1369622643">Unless your a murderer no one is "disgusting". She and all cheaters for that matter just made really poor decisions. You guys need to calm down. It's not like she hurt us in anyway.</blockquote>
Oh dear, you must be new to idol fandom, then? There's no way you can't have noticed how horribly personal people make idols to themselves?
Main point of the entire discussion has been bolded.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Petit Hulk" data-cid="152942" data-time="1369393364">Ain't nothing wrong with loving D. You just can't love more than one D in a relationship xD</blockquote>
Oh Petit, you are an absolute joy
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Petit Hulk" data-cid="153137" data-time="1369578904">These are celebrities though. The circumstances are different. There's these "oh they're just like us" theories and that's complete bullshit. Sure, there are people who stay together despite lack of love in the real world, but once a celebrity is married, their relationship is part of their brand. The entire reason why we have so many details about the situation (and not a "They are getting divorced because of an affair") is because someone knew that they could increase the brand power by releasing the details, whether it be the celebrity themself, the company, or someone close. edit - I hate saying this over and over, but I'm not excusing it, but in the fickle world of celebrity, I also know the bottom line is money and maintaining the current lifestyle they're in is important.</blockquote>
This, seriously.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Mugi" data-cid="153226" data-time="1369622643">Unless your a murderer no one is "disgusting". She and all cheaters for that matter just made really poor decisions. You guys need to calm down. It's not like she hurt us in anyway.</blockquote>
Oh dear, you must be new to idol fandom, then? There's no way you can't have noticed how horribly personal people make idols to themselves?
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fujii hina
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Re: Mari the Cheater
Being disgusting isn't an inherent, constant or permanent trait. Finding something disgusting is a reactionary feeling one can have towards another that may change depending on subsequent action. In that I don't think we can dictate to anyone not to feel anything on this matter, positive or negative, because feelings are just feelings. When feelings can actually kill people, I'll notify the police.
Re: Mari the Cheater
[quote="Mugi"]
Unless your a murderer no one is "disgusting". She and all cheaters for that matter just made really poor decisions. You guys need to calm down. It's not like she hurt us in anyway.
[/quote]
That's your opinion. I thinks it 100% incorrect. Fucking around on your spouse -- and doing it in the that same bed you share with your spouse -- is pretty much first ballot Hall of Fame Disgusting Whore in my book. The fact that she didn't hurt us is irrelevant to the discussion, so I'm not really sure why you brought it up.
Unless your a murderer no one is "disgusting". She and all cheaters for that matter just made really poor decisions. You guys need to calm down. It's not like she hurt us in anyway.
[/quote]
That's your opinion. I thinks it 100% incorrect. Fucking around on your spouse -- and doing it in the that same bed you share with your spouse -- is pretty much first ballot Hall of Fame Disgusting Whore in my book. The fact that she didn't hurt us is irrelevant to the discussion, so I'm not really sure why you brought it up.
Jpope On Jpop! blog
Re: Mari the Cheater
Woo~! I feel like opinions are on both extremes here - either calling her a whore and other loaded words, or saying that criticizing these actions is slut shaming. Slut shaming = bad, BUT - cheating also makes you either a painfully immature person, or a painfully selfish person - gender is pretty unimportant. A male cheater and a female cheater are exactly the same. It's a shame that society considers men to be inherently prone to infidelity, it's a shame that people are much less harsh on male cheaters, but that doesn't mean we should be sympathetic toward female cheaters. It's an issue where gender shouldn't matter, but sadly double standards arise because we live in a misogynistic society. It's quite disappointing to find out that Mari is either of those, if not both, as she was one of my original favorite members. I don't think the state of their marriage really matters - a mature person would end the marriage or go on a break, not bring men over to fuck in the bed they share with their significant other. Short of him being abusive, I don't think he could have done anything to her that would make Mari's actions even remotely permissible. I'm terribly disappointed in her and definitely, well, just don't like her anymore, at all.
All in all, it's a damn shame, for everyone involved - this could destroy what little career Mari has left, and I'm sure her husband is going through a terrible time. People who aren't cut out for monogamous relationships really shouldn't pursue them.
P.S. Who would have thought that Mari and Kei would end up being the H!P girls that get the hot guys?
All in all, it's a damn shame, for everyone involved - this could destroy what little career Mari has left, and I'm sure her husband is going through a terrible time. People who aren't cut out for monogamous relationships really shouldn't pursue them.
P.S. Who would have thought that Mari and Kei would end up being the H!P girls that get the hot guys?
Last edited by Farrah on Mon May 27, 2013 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Mari the Cheater
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Farrah" data-cid="153297" data-time="1369692467"> It's an issue where gender shouldn't matter, but sadly double standards arise because we live in a misogynistic society.</blockquote>
No, we don't.
No, we don't.
Jpope On Jpop! blog
Re: Mari the Cheater
[quote="JPope"]
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Farrah" data-cid="153297" data-time="1369692467"> It's an issue where gender shouldn't matter, but sadly double standards arise because we live in a misogynistic society.</blockquote>
No, we don't.
[/quote]
Yes, we do, unfortunately. Any denial of that is almost hilarious, especially when talking about Japan.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Farrah" data-cid="153297" data-time="1369692467"> It's an issue where gender shouldn't matter, but sadly double standards arise because we live in a misogynistic society.</blockquote>
No, we don't.
[/quote]
Yes, we do, unfortunately. Any denial of that is almost hilarious, especially when talking about Japan.
Re: Mari the Cheater
[quote="Farrah"]
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JPope" data-cid="153300" data-time="1369694097">
<div>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Farrah" data-cid="153297" data-time="1369692467"> It's an issue where gender shouldn't matter, but sadly double standards arise because we live in a misogynistic society.</blockquote>
No, we don't.
[/quote]
Yes, we do, unfortunately. Any denial of that is almost hilarious, especially when talking about Japan.
</div>
</blockquote>
I've lived here for 8 years, enlighten me!
From my experience, Japan is no different from any other country in the world.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JPope" data-cid="153300" data-time="1369694097">
<div>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Farrah" data-cid="153297" data-time="1369692467"> It's an issue where gender shouldn't matter, but sadly double standards arise because we live in a misogynistic society.</blockquote>
No, we don't.
[/quote]
Yes, we do, unfortunately. Any denial of that is almost hilarious, especially when talking about Japan.
</div>
</blockquote>
I've lived here for 8 years, enlighten me!
From my experience, Japan is no different from any other country in the world.
777
Re: Mari the Cheater
I'm crying with laughter right now
No, slut-shaming doesn't exist anymore you're 100% right! That's why guys get high-fives for cheating on their wife and girls get thrown into the pits of hell!
Not saying what Mari did is right, but come on. You can't deny that if Mari was male it would've been kept hushhush and all his/her friends would be high-fiving him/her behind the scenes.
No, slut-shaming doesn't exist anymore you're 100% right! That's why guys get high-fives for cheating on their wife and girls get thrown into the pits of hell!
Not saying what Mari did is right, but come on. You can't deny that if Mari was male it would've been kept hushhush and all his/her friends would be high-fiving him/her behind the scenes.
[11:13:35 PM] Liam: DO NOT LET JAPANESE IDOLS GET IN THE WAY OF THE *AMERICAN* DREAM
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MiniLovely
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Re: Mari the Cheater
I don't even think I can get into this last bit of this conversation without sounding off, so I'll leave this here:
Bad Mari. Bad. Very bad. By principle, you should have communicated with and been more respectful towards your husband as a human being because that is the humane thing to do. The end.
Bad Mari. Bad. Very bad. By principle, you should have communicated with and been more respectful towards your husband as a human being because that is the humane thing to do. The end.
Last edited by MiniLovely on Mon May 27, 2013 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mari the Cheater
[quote="rob"]
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Farrah" data-cid="153317" data-time="1369705358">
<div>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JPope" data-cid="153300" data-time="1369694097">
<div>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Farrah" data-cid="153297" data-time="1369692467"> It's an issue where gender shouldn't matter, but sadly double standards arise because we live in a misogynistic society.</blockquote>
No, we don't.
[/quote]
Yes, we do, unfortunately. Any denial of that is almost hilarious, especially when talking about Japan.
</div>
</blockquote>
I've lived here for 8 years, enlighten me!
From my experience, Japan is no different from any other country in the world.
</div>
</blockquote>
Japan is light-years behind as far as misogyny, or even the awareness of misogyny goes. Women's rights is barely even known, much less spoken about. This goes for most of Asia, sadly. Not to say that the west is awesome when it comes to the subject of sexism, but we had a much more significant women's rights movement and it definitely impacted our culture significantly in a way Japan hasn't really experienced yet.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Farrah" data-cid="153317" data-time="1369705358">
<div>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JPope" data-cid="153300" data-time="1369694097">
<div>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Farrah" data-cid="153297" data-time="1369692467"> It's an issue where gender shouldn't matter, but sadly double standards arise because we live in a misogynistic society.</blockquote>
No, we don't.
[/quote]
Yes, we do, unfortunately. Any denial of that is almost hilarious, especially when talking about Japan.
</div>
</blockquote>
I've lived here for 8 years, enlighten me!
From my experience, Japan is no different from any other country in the world.
</div>
</blockquote>
Japan is light-years behind as far as misogyny, or even the awareness of misogyny goes. Women's rights is barely even known, much less spoken about. This goes for most of Asia, sadly. Not to say that the west is awesome when it comes to the subject of sexism, but we had a much more significant women's rights movement and it definitely impacted our culture significantly in a way Japan hasn't really experienced yet.
Re: Mari the Cheater
[quote="Farrah"]
Yes, we do, unfortunately. Any denial of that is almost hilarious, especially when talking about Japan.
[/quote]
You do not live in Japan, afaik.
Just as the central-european society is different from the US-american society, the US-american society is very different from the Japanese society.
Mixing them together, as if they're all the same and one society, is not correct.
Saying that the US-american (or central-european) society is a misogynistic society is plain wrong. Do you even know what misogyny means ? Eventhough it's a word feminists like to throw around and at everything, It primarily has the connotation of HATING.
As for Japan, the problem there are the still existing, very strict role models for males and females. It's not just the females that get shit flung at them, but also males that don't fit into the classic "manly family protector" expectation. Look up words like 草食男子 (soushoku danshi).
I do certainly agree, though, that the Japanese society has some big problems that they should overcome in terms of male and female gender roles.
Yes, we do, unfortunately. Any denial of that is almost hilarious, especially when talking about Japan.
[/quote]
You do not live in Japan, afaik.
Just as the central-european society is different from the US-american society, the US-american society is very different from the Japanese society.
Mixing them together, as if they're all the same and one society, is not correct.
Saying that the US-american (or central-european) society is a misogynistic society is plain wrong. Do you even know what misogyny means ? Eventhough it's a word feminists like to throw around and at everything, It primarily has the connotation of HATING.
As for Japan, the problem there are the still existing, very strict role models for males and females. It's not just the females that get shit flung at them, but also males that don't fit into the classic "manly family protector" expectation. Look up words like 草食男子 (soushoku danshi).
I do certainly agree, though, that the Japanese society has some big problems that they should overcome in terms of male and female gender roles.
Travel back in time through the haze of memories that aren't your own
and melodies frozen in a particular place in history..
If you say run, I'll run with you
If you say hide, we'll hide
and melodies frozen in a particular place in history..
If you say run, I'll run with you
If you say hide, we'll hide
-
momoirosaya
- つんく♂
- Posts: 5148
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:21 pm
Re: Mari the Cheater
Misogyny exists in America and Japan, but it does not define our or their culture. It's like racism still exists but America is generally not considered to be a racist society anymore.
rikako♡eripon♡airi
Re: Mari the Cheater
[quote="Ap2000"]
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Farrah" data-cid="153317" data-time="1369705358">
<div>
Yes, we do, unfortunately. Any denial of that is almost hilarious, especially when talking about Japan.
[/quote]
You do not live in Japan, afaik.
Just as the central-european society is different from the US-american society, the US-american society is very different from the Japanese society.
Mixing them together, as if they're all the same and one society, is not correct.
Saying that the US-american (or central-european) society is a misogynistic society is plain wrong. Do you even know what misogyny means ? Eventhough it's a word feminists like to throw around and at everything, It primarily has the connotation of HATING.
As for Japan, the problem there are the still existing, very strict role models for males and females. It's not just the females that get shit flung at them, but also males that don't fit into the classic "manly family protector" expectation. Look up words like 草食男子 (soushoku danshi).
I do certainly agree, though, that the Japanese society has some big problems that they should overcome in terms of male and female gender roles.
</div>
</blockquote>
Wasn't actually planning on commenting. My only thoughts of Mari here? Cheating = bad. I am disappointed in her. But it's her life, she can live it the way she wants to. Not like my disappointment would affect her in any shape or form, so, oh well.
The main reason I'm commenting is because I saw the definition of misogyny up there along with the usage of gender constructs defending the fact that it's not only women who "get shit flung at them" and had a kneejerk reaction.
<p style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:12px;color:rgb(51,51,51);">Definition: Misogyny means the hatred of women. The word comes from the <a href="http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/gree ... ">Greek</a> misein, to hate and gyne, woman. Misogyny is often used to describe contempt for women as a whole, rather than hatred of specific women.
<p style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:12px;color:rgb(51,51,51);">In <a href="http://womenshistory.about.com/od/femin ... ">feminist theory</a>, misogyny often describes an attitude that is perceived to be negative and demeaning toward women as a group. While it is rare to find someone who actually despises all women just because they are female, feminists more commonly observe prejudice against women or an assumption that women are less deserving than men. This usually leads to actions that harm women. People, usually men, who display hateful behaviors that oppress women are said to be misogynists.
Important parts bolded. It's not just about HATING on women. The root word in Greek is hatred of women, yes, and I agree it's easy to just wave the word around carelessly. I would even hazard the possibility that it's badly used, even. However, when you mention that feminists hurl that word everywhere, do you even know what it actually means when they're using it?
Misogyny in society is more than just slut shaming (which is one of the obvious ways of spotting it, but hardly the only way). Misogyny is the idea that women are inherently inferior to men, and therefore need to be put in their place. That lends itself to the socially constructed gender roles for both men and women that you mentioned, the need for men to be in the role of "manly family protector" and women as the "homemaker". It is a hierarchical structure that <i>places women in roles beneath men</i>, and can be damaging to both men AND women. Misogyny is basically inbuilt in patriarchal societies, particularly Asian cultures, and it's not so much that women get deprived of rights per se (at least not after universal women's suffrage), since most modern Asian countries like Japan, South Korea and others allow women to vote and hold jobs and stuff like that -- although, it was only in the last century that this happened -- but the fact that stereotypes of women's "proper roles" still exist is evident of a misogynistic attitude, even if most people aren't actually conscious of it. Please don't try to divorce the idea of gender roles away from misogyny, because a lot of it is still interlinked, like it or not. Misogyny doesn't hurt only women, but men too.
Anyway, not trying to derail the topic. I just couldn't stand seeing the concept being thrown around like that. It really annoys me. And just FYI, I live in an Asian country, in case someone questions my understanding of Asian culture. I might not be Japanese or live in Japan, but patriarchal societies share enough common denominators for me to point bullshit out where I see it.
Back on topic though, Mari made bad decisions. It's not up to me or anyone to judge her, though as I said, I am disappointed in her. My opinion will not change anything. I hope she does better from now on, learns from her mistakes etc, but in the end it's her life to live. If she wants to fuck it up, she can. I can't stop her, though well, the disappointment remains. The bond between idol and fan is a precocious thing, I realize. I was never a huge fan of Mari, but I always liked her entertaining personality. Would it detract from Yaguchi the entertainer? Well, to be frank, I doubt it would bother me that much, hell, I think it'd be interesting to see her on London Hearts. -- yes I'm a soulless bastard. XD Mari the person though, well, she's not my friend or anything, so I guess I can draw that line? I suppose I would be a lot more upset if it had been someone I was a diehard supporter of, but since it isn't...well, c'est la vie?
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Farrah" data-cid="153317" data-time="1369705358">
<div>
Yes, we do, unfortunately. Any denial of that is almost hilarious, especially when talking about Japan.
[/quote]
You do not live in Japan, afaik.
Just as the central-european society is different from the US-american society, the US-american society is very different from the Japanese society.
Mixing them together, as if they're all the same and one society, is not correct.
Saying that the US-american (or central-european) society is a misogynistic society is plain wrong. Do you even know what misogyny means ? Eventhough it's a word feminists like to throw around and at everything, It primarily has the connotation of HATING.
As for Japan, the problem there are the still existing, very strict role models for males and females. It's not just the females that get shit flung at them, but also males that don't fit into the classic "manly family protector" expectation. Look up words like 草食男子 (soushoku danshi).
I do certainly agree, though, that the Japanese society has some big problems that they should overcome in terms of male and female gender roles.
</div>
</blockquote>
Wasn't actually planning on commenting. My only thoughts of Mari here? Cheating = bad. I am disappointed in her. But it's her life, she can live it the way she wants to. Not like my disappointment would affect her in any shape or form, so, oh well.
The main reason I'm commenting is because I saw the definition of misogyny up there along with the usage of gender constructs defending the fact that it's not only women who "get shit flung at them" and had a kneejerk reaction.
<p style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:12px;color:rgb(51,51,51);">Definition: Misogyny means the hatred of women. The word comes from the <a href="http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/gree ... ">Greek</a> misein, to hate and gyne, woman. Misogyny is often used to describe contempt for women as a whole, rather than hatred of specific women.
<p style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:12px;color:rgb(51,51,51);">In <a href="http://womenshistory.about.com/od/femin ... ">feminist theory</a>, misogyny often describes an attitude that is perceived to be negative and demeaning toward women as a group. While it is rare to find someone who actually despises all women just because they are female, feminists more commonly observe prejudice against women or an assumption that women are less deserving than men. This usually leads to actions that harm women. People, usually men, who display hateful behaviors that oppress women are said to be misogynists.
Important parts bolded. It's not just about HATING on women. The root word in Greek is hatred of women, yes, and I agree it's easy to just wave the word around carelessly. I would even hazard the possibility that it's badly used, even. However, when you mention that feminists hurl that word everywhere, do you even know what it actually means when they're using it?
Misogyny in society is more than just slut shaming (which is one of the obvious ways of spotting it, but hardly the only way). Misogyny is the idea that women are inherently inferior to men, and therefore need to be put in their place. That lends itself to the socially constructed gender roles for both men and women that you mentioned, the need for men to be in the role of "manly family protector" and women as the "homemaker". It is a hierarchical structure that <i>places women in roles beneath men</i>, and can be damaging to both men AND women. Misogyny is basically inbuilt in patriarchal societies, particularly Asian cultures, and it's not so much that women get deprived of rights per se (at least not after universal women's suffrage), since most modern Asian countries like Japan, South Korea and others allow women to vote and hold jobs and stuff like that -- although, it was only in the last century that this happened -- but the fact that stereotypes of women's "proper roles" still exist is evident of a misogynistic attitude, even if most people aren't actually conscious of it. Please don't try to divorce the idea of gender roles away from misogyny, because a lot of it is still interlinked, like it or not. Misogyny doesn't hurt only women, but men too.
Anyway, not trying to derail the topic. I just couldn't stand seeing the concept being thrown around like that. It really annoys me. And just FYI, I live in an Asian country, in case someone questions my understanding of Asian culture. I might not be Japanese or live in Japan, but patriarchal societies share enough common denominators for me to point bullshit out where I see it.
Back on topic though, Mari made bad decisions. It's not up to me or anyone to judge her, though as I said, I am disappointed in her. My opinion will not change anything. I hope she does better from now on, learns from her mistakes etc, but in the end it's her life to live. If she wants to fuck it up, she can. I can't stop her, though well, the disappointment remains. The bond between idol and fan is a precocious thing, I realize. I was never a huge fan of Mari, but I always liked her entertaining personality. Would it detract from Yaguchi the entertainer? Well, to be frank, I doubt it would bother me that much, hell, I think it'd be interesting to see her on London Hearts. -- yes I'm a soulless bastard. XD Mari the person though, well, she's not my friend or anything, so I guess I can draw that line? I suppose I would be a lot more upset if it had been someone I was a diehard supporter of, but since it isn't...well, c'est la vie?
<a class="bbc_url" href="http://imgbox.com/hZ1Bs0hK">[img]http:/ ... 1Bs0hK.jpg[/img]</a>
永遠に咲き続ける花なんていない、すべてはいずれ枯れて朽ち果てしまう。
永遠に咲き続ける花なんていない、すべてはいずれ枯れて朽ち果てしまう。
![http://imgbox.com/hZ1Bs0hK">[img]http:/ ... 1Bs0hK.jpg](http://imgbox.com/hZ1Bs0hK%22%3E%5Bimg%5Dhttp://t.imgbox.com/hZ1Bs0hK.jpg){kind=link}
Re: Mari the Cheater
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JPope" data-cid="153178" data-time="1369593737">No one gives a fuck about him in much the same way no one gave a fuck about the "maid" that Arnold Schwarzenegger fucked in his own bed. Apparently she was just an innocent 3rd party to Arnie's fiendish whims, despite having looked Maria Shriver in eyes and playing with their kids every day for 10 years. Yet she still fucked Maria's husband in Maria's own bed behind her back. Arnie was the monster and Maria was the victim, period. The moral of this story? Nobody gives a fuck about the "other" person, regardless of whether that person is male or female.
And absolutely nobody tried to "understand" what might have driven Arnie to cheat. Nobody urged anyone to consider that we don't know all the facts surrounding their marriage. Arnie was a piece of shit, end of story, full fucking stop. Which is the correct reading of that story.</blockquote>This is beautifully put and explains exactly why I never formed much opinion about Arnie's affair other than, again, "that's disappointing". We don't know the details, we don't know the motivations, we see nothing of the whole picture but just one singular fact of an event. The rest we extrapolate from what we're fed by the media, who in turn are fed by the PR agencies of the involved parties. And in doing so, we reduce ourselves to sensation-seeking tabloid readers.
The only case I can think of where you could perhaps form a remotely educated opinion as to what went down and then judge the parties according to your moral standards is the Clinton case, provided you spent time reading all the court records and whatnot. But who would waste time doing that, the public is happy enough knowing that he got a bj from his young assistant and speculating whether she swallowed or not.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Estrea" data-cid="153353" data-time="1369753104">That lends itself to the socially constructed gender roles for both men and women that you mentioned, the need for men to be in the role of "manly family protector" and women as the "homemaker". It is a hierarchical structure that places women in roles beneath men, and can be damaging to both men AND women.</blockquote>Did you just speak from the assumption that "homemaking" is in any way an inferior role to "breadwinning"? I think that in itself is very demeaning of you towards anyone primarily taking care of the home.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Estrea" data-cid="153353" data-time="1369753104">most modern Asian countries like Japan, South Korea and others allow women to vote and hold jobs and stuff like that -- although, it was only in the last century that this happened</blockquote>Same century as in the USA where women suffrage was only <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteenth ... >completed in 1920</a>. Or 93 years ago. Quite mind blowing, isn't it?
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Estrea" data-cid="153353" data-time="1369753104">Please don't try to divorce the idea of gender roles away from misogyny, because a lot of it is still interlinked, like it or not. Misogyny doesn't hurt only women, but men too.</blockquote>As Ap said, gender role stereotyping works both ways. Which you basically agree with in this sentence. But calling it "misogyny" or "hatred of women" is just appropriating the perceived hurt by one gender and implying that the other gender is somehow responsible for it. Which is just as bad and discriminating as what they apparently are protesting against.
And absolutely nobody tried to "understand" what might have driven Arnie to cheat. Nobody urged anyone to consider that we don't know all the facts surrounding their marriage. Arnie was a piece of shit, end of story, full fucking stop. Which is the correct reading of that story.</blockquote>This is beautifully put and explains exactly why I never formed much opinion about Arnie's affair other than, again, "that's disappointing". We don't know the details, we don't know the motivations, we see nothing of the whole picture but just one singular fact of an event. The rest we extrapolate from what we're fed by the media, who in turn are fed by the PR agencies of the involved parties. And in doing so, we reduce ourselves to sensation-seeking tabloid readers.
The only case I can think of where you could perhaps form a remotely educated opinion as to what went down and then judge the parties according to your moral standards is the Clinton case, provided you spent time reading all the court records and whatnot. But who would waste time doing that, the public is happy enough knowing that he got a bj from his young assistant and speculating whether she swallowed or not.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Estrea" data-cid="153353" data-time="1369753104">That lends itself to the socially constructed gender roles for both men and women that you mentioned, the need for men to be in the role of "manly family protector" and women as the "homemaker". It is a hierarchical structure that places women in roles beneath men, and can be damaging to both men AND women.</blockquote>Did you just speak from the assumption that "homemaking" is in any way an inferior role to "breadwinning"? I think that in itself is very demeaning of you towards anyone primarily taking care of the home.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Estrea" data-cid="153353" data-time="1369753104">most modern Asian countries like Japan, South Korea and others allow women to vote and hold jobs and stuff like that -- although, it was only in the last century that this happened</blockquote>Same century as in the USA where women suffrage was only <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteenth ... >completed in 1920</a>. Or 93 years ago. Quite mind blowing, isn't it?
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Estrea" data-cid="153353" data-time="1369753104">Please don't try to divorce the idea of gender roles away from misogyny, because a lot of it is still interlinked, like it or not. Misogyny doesn't hurt only women, but men too.</blockquote>As Ap said, gender role stereotyping works both ways. Which you basically agree with in this sentence. But calling it "misogyny" or "hatred of women" is just appropriating the perceived hurt by one gender and implying that the other gender is somehow responsible for it. Which is just as bad and discriminating as what they apparently are protesting against.
Last edited by aine on Tue May 28, 2013 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯
#whereisyui #ゆいちゃん
~breathe your last and fall into my eternal embrace~
Re: Mari the Cheater
Estrea, when I read your post I thought to myself that you're unknowingly actually proving my point.
The word misogyny is missused in popular media because it is a strong word and it immediately triggers certain feelings and emotions. Another such word would be "terrorism". The mass media likes such words, so they unfortunately influence its use in a bad way. That's also why in our case it was unfortunately used by Farrah in the wrong way, I'm not blaming her and hopefully that's not what it seemed like.
You certainly do have some interest and knowledge, I don't know how much you're into gender stuff though. However, I've been hearing, reading and discussing about it, specifically in the context of Japan, during my studies for at least three years now on an academic level. And the words misogyny, misogynistic and mysogynist are very, very rarely used in scientific texts and books, precisely because it actually has that extreme connotation and it should only be used for those extreme piece of shit assholes that treat women like garbage.
I have to admit I was too ambiguous when I said "feminists like to throw it around". I wasn't talking about social scientists, but more the people that do not have the knowledge about the studies, but still most probably are treated unfair. They just declare it as "misogynistic", because that's the popular word they've been hearing about it in the media all the time.
You also made it sound as if by solving social problems involving women, the ones men have are automatically solved too, since they seemingly are just a byproduct.
I also fully agree with what aine said in response to your post and was about to write basically the same.
The word misogyny is missused in popular media because it is a strong word and it immediately triggers certain feelings and emotions. Another such word would be "terrorism". The mass media likes such words, so they unfortunately influence its use in a bad way. That's also why in our case it was unfortunately used by Farrah in the wrong way, I'm not blaming her and hopefully that's not what it seemed like.
You certainly do have some interest and knowledge, I don't know how much you're into gender stuff though. However, I've been hearing, reading and discussing about it, specifically in the context of Japan, during my studies for at least three years now on an academic level. And the words misogyny, misogynistic and mysogynist are very, very rarely used in scientific texts and books, precisely because it actually has that extreme connotation and it should only be used for those extreme piece of shit assholes that treat women like garbage.
I have to admit I was too ambiguous when I said "feminists like to throw it around". I wasn't talking about social scientists, but more the people that do not have the knowledge about the studies, but still most probably are treated unfair. They just declare it as "misogynistic", because that's the popular word they've been hearing about it in the media all the time.
You also made it sound as if by solving social problems involving women, the ones men have are automatically solved too, since they seemingly are just a byproduct.
I also fully agree with what aine said in response to your post and was about to write basically the same.
Travel back in time through the haze of memories that aren't your own
and melodies frozen in a particular place in history..
If you say run, I'll run with you
If you say hide, we'll hide
and melodies frozen in a particular place in history..
If you say run, I'll run with you
If you say hide, we'll hide
Re: Mari the Cheater
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
Did you just speak from the assumption that "homemaking" is in any way an inferior role to "breadwinning"? I think that in itself is very demeaning of you towards anyone primarily taking care of the home.</blockquote>
My bad, I used a weak example because I was in a hurry and it was late, I did not mean to say that "homemaking" is inferior to "breadwinning" and I have greatest respect for homemakers who care for everything that makes a household run (it's practically a full time job that doesn't even have actual financial renumeration and possibly the least amount of appreciation ever). What I meant to say was that the idea that gender roles make one suitable for certain types of jobs, like "traditionally feminine occupations" or "traditionally masculine occupations" -- like, the perception that nursing, for example, is a feminine occupation (when male nurses can do the job just as well), or when we think of the term "doctor" the default gender is "male" (though of course there are female doctors, exception to every rule). Another industry is engineering, where it is mainly male dominated (though I do have several female friends who are in engineering). That's not to say that one occupation is inherently better than another, simply that certain occupations carry that label that either <insert gender> would be better at it. Though of course, that is certainly true for some things, not that one gender is better at something, but perhaps more suited? Because it is indeed true that men have more muscle mass than women all other things being equal, so a job requiring a lot of heavy lifting would be better suited to men, though a woman could do it with more effort on her part. I think I just dislike the whole idea of stereotyping. Men should be able to choose to be a homemaker if that's what they want to (house husbands are not inferior to housewives!), and women should not feel afraid or even "unfeminine" to take up positions in male-dominated industries.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
As Ap said, gender role stereotyping works both ways. Which you basically agree with in this sentence. But calling it "misogyny" or "hatred of women" is just appropriating the perceived hurt by one gender and implying that the other gender is somehow responsible for it. Which is just as bad and discriminating as what they apparently are protesting against.</blockquote>
I didn't actually disagree with Ap, I just had a kneejerk reaction to the word misogyny being dismissed. And misogyny isn't defined as hatred of women by men. Women are fully capable of being misogynistic too, just saying. Also, perceived hurt? Really? Women aren't hurt? Wow, that's new. Why must misogyny automatically mean men vs women? I would argue that it's more a case of patriarchal society vs women. And men are just as trapped in that construct as women are, though women have systematically had more of their rights trodden on over the passage of time, and it's only within the last century that we've made significant steps as a species to correct that balance. But I suppose you might be reacting also to how some feminists use that word to bludgeon men all the time, which I agree shouldn't be done. I don't even want to bring up the issue of male privilege because of the inevitable shit storm that follows, but let's just say that we probably do need a better term for the excesses of gender stereotyping.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
Estrea, when I read your post I thought to myself that you're unknowingly actually proving my point.</blockquote>
I wasn't actively trying to disagree with you. As you say, misogyny is a strong word with many emotional connotations. I had an emotional response and felt compelled to say something on the subject. How typically female of me, huh (ha!)
And yes I definitely agree that people throw that word around and misuse it blatantly. I have a passing curiosity in gender issues, though I admit I do not study at an academic level and would defer to someone who is better educated in that respect and is capable of explaining them properly.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
You also made it sound as if by solving social problems involving women, the ones men have are automatically solved too, since they seemingly are just a byproduct.</blockquote>
Again, my bad. Overgeneralization is evil and should be fought against. Social problems involving women are just a big piece of the puzzle, but solving them definitely won't solve all of humanity's problems...but it would certainly help to equalize the issues and help to make the world a slightly better place than before. People will always have shit to fight/disagree about, but one less problem is one less problem, and female rights is just one of the many that is taking its time to right itself. And what was our original point again?
Did you just speak from the assumption that "homemaking" is in any way an inferior role to "breadwinning"? I think that in itself is very demeaning of you towards anyone primarily taking care of the home.</blockquote>
My bad, I used a weak example because I was in a hurry and it was late, I did not mean to say that "homemaking" is inferior to "breadwinning" and I have greatest respect for homemakers who care for everything that makes a household run (it's practically a full time job that doesn't even have actual financial renumeration and possibly the least amount of appreciation ever). What I meant to say was that the idea that gender roles make one suitable for certain types of jobs, like "traditionally feminine occupations" or "traditionally masculine occupations" -- like, the perception that nursing, for example, is a feminine occupation (when male nurses can do the job just as well), or when we think of the term "doctor" the default gender is "male" (though of course there are female doctors, exception to every rule). Another industry is engineering, where it is mainly male dominated (though I do have several female friends who are in engineering). That's not to say that one occupation is inherently better than another, simply that certain occupations carry that label that either <insert gender> would be better at it. Though of course, that is certainly true for some things, not that one gender is better at something, but perhaps more suited? Because it is indeed true that men have more muscle mass than women all other things being equal, so a job requiring a lot of heavy lifting would be better suited to men, though a woman could do it with more effort on her part. I think I just dislike the whole idea of stereotyping. Men should be able to choose to be a homemaker if that's what they want to (house husbands are not inferior to housewives!), and women should not feel afraid or even "unfeminine" to take up positions in male-dominated industries.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
As Ap said, gender role stereotyping works both ways. Which you basically agree with in this sentence. But calling it "misogyny" or "hatred of women" is just appropriating the perceived hurt by one gender and implying that the other gender is somehow responsible for it. Which is just as bad and discriminating as what they apparently are protesting against.</blockquote>
I didn't actually disagree with Ap, I just had a kneejerk reaction to the word misogyny being dismissed. And misogyny isn't defined as hatred of women by men. Women are fully capable of being misogynistic too, just saying. Also, perceived hurt? Really? Women aren't hurt? Wow, that's new. Why must misogyny automatically mean men vs women? I would argue that it's more a case of patriarchal society vs women. And men are just as trapped in that construct as women are, though women have systematically had more of their rights trodden on over the passage of time, and it's only within the last century that we've made significant steps as a species to correct that balance. But I suppose you might be reacting also to how some feminists use that word to bludgeon men all the time, which I agree shouldn't be done. I don't even want to bring up the issue of male privilege because of the inevitable shit storm that follows, but let's just say that we probably do need a better term for the excesses of gender stereotyping.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
Estrea, when I read your post I thought to myself that you're unknowingly actually proving my point.</blockquote>
I wasn't actively trying to disagree with you. As you say, misogyny is a strong word with many emotional connotations. I had an emotional response and felt compelled to say something on the subject. How typically female of me, huh (ha!)
And yes I definitely agree that people throw that word around and misuse it blatantly. I have a passing curiosity in gender issues, though I admit I do not study at an academic level and would defer to someone who is better educated in that respect and is capable of explaining them properly.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
You also made it sound as if by solving social problems involving women, the ones men have are automatically solved too, since they seemingly are just a byproduct.</blockquote>
Again, my bad. Overgeneralization is evil and should be fought against. Social problems involving women are just a big piece of the puzzle, but solving them definitely won't solve all of humanity's problems...but it would certainly help to equalize the issues and help to make the world a slightly better place than before. People will always have shit to fight/disagree about, but one less problem is one less problem, and female rights is just one of the many that is taking its time to right itself. And what was our original point again?
<a class="bbc_url" href="http://imgbox.com/hZ1Bs0hK">[img]http:/ ... 1Bs0hK.jpg[/img]</a>
永遠に咲き続ける花なんていない、すべてはいずれ枯れて朽ち果てしまう。
永遠に咲き続ける花なんていない、すべてはいずれ枯れて朽ち果てしまう。
-
AEUGNewtype
- ANGERME
- Posts: 1296
- Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:06 pm
Re: Mari the Cheater
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Haru" data-cid="153320" data-time="1369706850">
I'm crying with laughter right now
No, slut-shaming doesn't exist anymore you're 100% right! That's why guys get high-fives for cheating on their wife and girls get thrown into the pits of hell!
Not saying what Mari did is right, but come on. You can't deny that if Mari was male it would've been kept hushhush and all his/her friends would be high-fiving him/her behind the scenes.
</blockquote>
We don't know that Mari's friends were doing that with her. Lots of women are adapting this shitty mentality now as well. Its shitty regardless of what sex does it, but women think its cute and as a way of "getting back" at men by cheating and celebrating it.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Farrah" data-cid="153324" data-time="1369711815">
Japan is light-years behind as far as misogyny, or even the awareness of misogyny goes. Women's rights is barely even known, much less spoken about. This goes for most of Asia, sadly. Not to say that the west is awesome when it comes to the subject of sexism, but we had a much more significant women's rights movement and it definitely impacted our culture significantly in a way Japan hasn't really experienced yet.
</blockquote>
Very true, even if misogyny isn't exactly the right word to use. Women who break the expectations of female roles in Japanese society are underhandedly shamed and mistreated, I hear about it pretty often from some of my friends. They're kinda the same with foreigners. Yes, foreigners and women can get jobs there, but they're pigeon-holed into only really being able to get certain kinds of jobs and are only allowed to progress so far in the company heirarchy. Some rare exceptions may be in the case of foreigners, if they were already pretty high up in a company in another country and got transferred to Japan, or something like that.
But even then, foreigners are shit on in Japan. The CEO of Olympus Camera (a British guy) was transferred to Japan and in 2011, he uncovered an accounting scandal where board members were embezzling huge amounts of money from the company, and when he blew the whistle, he was fired and they said he "just didn't understand how Japanese business works." Shortly thereafter, he received yakuza threats that he would be murdered along with his family and he had to flee Japan fearing for his life. This was the fucking CEO, guys.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Ap2000" data-cid="153329" data-time="1369742098">
As for Japan, the problem there are the still existing, very strict role models for males and females. It's not just the females that get shit flung at them, but also males that don't fit into the classic "manly family protector" expectation. Look up words like 草食男子 (soushoku danshi).
I do certainly agree, though, that the Japanese society has some big problems that they should overcome in terms of male and female gender roles.
</blockquote>
Yep. It is possibly even more disturbing, though, that these roles have been passed down for so long and are so ingrained into the society that no one really bats an eye at it unless foreigners try to intervene, and even then, they're mostly shunned and ignored as the politicians make excuses for why they are the way they are.
Hell, they've even got national politicians in Japan on TV and radio in the last few days defending the atrocities they committed during previous wars, including sexual slavery of Korean women, saying things like "its not our fault, our soldiers just needed to relieve their sexual tension" and "they were throwing themselves at us." Oh, Japan. Wonderful progress, huh?
I'm crying with laughter right now
No, slut-shaming doesn't exist anymore you're 100% right! That's why guys get high-fives for cheating on their wife and girls get thrown into the pits of hell!
Not saying what Mari did is right, but come on. You can't deny that if Mari was male it would've been kept hushhush and all his/her friends would be high-fiving him/her behind the scenes.
</blockquote>
We don't know that Mari's friends were doing that with her. Lots of women are adapting this shitty mentality now as well. Its shitty regardless of what sex does it, but women think its cute and as a way of "getting back" at men by cheating and celebrating it.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Farrah" data-cid="153324" data-time="1369711815">
Japan is light-years behind as far as misogyny, or even the awareness of misogyny goes. Women's rights is barely even known, much less spoken about. This goes for most of Asia, sadly. Not to say that the west is awesome when it comes to the subject of sexism, but we had a much more significant women's rights movement and it definitely impacted our culture significantly in a way Japan hasn't really experienced yet.
</blockquote>
Very true, even if misogyny isn't exactly the right word to use. Women who break the expectations of female roles in Japanese society are underhandedly shamed and mistreated, I hear about it pretty often from some of my friends. They're kinda the same with foreigners. Yes, foreigners and women can get jobs there, but they're pigeon-holed into only really being able to get certain kinds of jobs and are only allowed to progress so far in the company heirarchy. Some rare exceptions may be in the case of foreigners, if they were already pretty high up in a company in another country and got transferred to Japan, or something like that.
But even then, foreigners are shit on in Japan. The CEO of Olympus Camera (a British guy) was transferred to Japan and in 2011, he uncovered an accounting scandal where board members were embezzling huge amounts of money from the company, and when he blew the whistle, he was fired and they said he "just didn't understand how Japanese business works." Shortly thereafter, he received yakuza threats that he would be murdered along with his family and he had to flee Japan fearing for his life. This was the fucking CEO, guys.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Ap2000" data-cid="153329" data-time="1369742098">
As for Japan, the problem there are the still existing, very strict role models for males and females. It's not just the females that get shit flung at them, but also males that don't fit into the classic "manly family protector" expectation. Look up words like 草食男子 (soushoku danshi).
I do certainly agree, though, that the Japanese society has some big problems that they should overcome in terms of male and female gender roles.
</blockquote>
Yep. It is possibly even more disturbing, though, that these roles have been passed down for so long and are so ingrained into the society that no one really bats an eye at it unless foreigners try to intervene, and even then, they're mostly shunned and ignored as the politicians make excuses for why they are the way they are.
Hell, they've even got national politicians in Japan on TV and radio in the last few days defending the atrocities they committed during previous wars, including sexual slavery of Korean women, saying things like "its not our fault, our soldiers just needed to relieve their sexual tension" and "they were throwing themselves at us." Oh, Japan. Wonderful progress, huh?
Last edited by AEUGNewtype on Tue May 28, 2013 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Mari the Cheater
[quote="Estrea"]And what was our original point again?[/quote]
Betraying somebody is bad, no matter who you are.
If you're interested in some good books about Japan and gender roles, I can recommend:
Gender and labour in Korea and Japan (2009) by Ruth Barraclough, published by Routledge:London. - Haven't read all of it, but the premise is pretty interesting, since it looks at sexualization at work and sex labour and its correlations to WW II and industrialization.
Genders, transgenders and sexualities in Japan (2005) by Mark McLelland and Romit Dasgupta, published by Routledge:London. - This was actually the very first book they gave us new students back in 2008 when I had my first semester (Japanology) and it's a pretty great overview. If you want to, I can *cough* make it available to you *cough*.
For smaller texts/essays/papers, I can highly recommend <a href="http://www.jstor.org/,">http://www.jstor.org/,</a> just search for something like "gender japan" and you'll find a lot.
It's a database for scientific texts from all kinds of different areas.
They also have reviews of books there, so you can get a short overview over the ones that might interest you.
I personally can highly recommend: Cambridge's Journal of Asian Studies, Society for Japanese Studies' Journal of Japanese Studies and another one that I can't remember, but it had "studies" and "journal" in it...
Since I'm personally interested in the term "salaryman" and everything surrounding it (can't really explain why though, I just am lol), this book seems super intriguing, but I haven't had the chance to read it yet:
Re-reading the salaryman in Japan - Crafting masculinities (2011) by Romit Dasgupta, published by Routledge:London.
Betraying somebody is bad, no matter who you are.
If you're interested in some good books about Japan and gender roles, I can recommend:
Gender and labour in Korea and Japan (2009) by Ruth Barraclough, published by Routledge:London. - Haven't read all of it, but the premise is pretty interesting, since it looks at sexualization at work and sex labour and its correlations to WW II and industrialization.
Genders, transgenders and sexualities in Japan (2005) by Mark McLelland and Romit Dasgupta, published by Routledge:London. - This was actually the very first book they gave us new students back in 2008 when I had my first semester (Japanology) and it's a pretty great overview. If you want to, I can *cough* make it available to you *cough*.
For smaller texts/essays/papers, I can highly recommend <a href="http://www.jstor.org/,">http://www.jstor.org/,</a> just search for something like "gender japan" and you'll find a lot.
It's a database for scientific texts from all kinds of different areas.
They also have reviews of books there, so you can get a short overview over the ones that might interest you.
I personally can highly recommend: Cambridge's Journal of Asian Studies, Society for Japanese Studies' Journal of Japanese Studies and another one that I can't remember, but it had "studies" and "journal" in it...
Since I'm personally interested in the term "salaryman" and everything surrounding it (can't really explain why though, I just am lol), this book seems super intriguing, but I haven't had the chance to read it yet:
Re-reading the salaryman in Japan - Crafting masculinities (2011) by Romit Dasgupta, published by Routledge:London.
Last edited by Ap2000 on Tue May 28, 2013 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Travel back in time through the haze of memories that aren't your own
and melodies frozen in a particular place in history..
If you say run, I'll run with you
If you say hide, we'll hide
and melodies frozen in a particular place in history..
If you say run, I'll run with you
If you say hide, we'll hide
Re: Mari the Cheater
So many people who don't live in Japan trying to have an opinion of the general public and pointing to extreme examples to "prove" their opinions.
You wrongly assume that Japanese girls want to have a career but are being stopped by "evil" men, this really isn't the case. If I was to ask a random girl on the street who was say 16-20 what they wanted to do in the future, I'd wager a majority would say they wanted to get married and have kids.
Nobody is forcing them to do this, it's just what they want.
These Japanese wives enjoy a pretty sweet life, they have extensive social lives, hobbies and are in FULL control of the money in the house.
The husbands on the flip side work 12-17 hours a day, are given pocket money by the wife, have no time for friends or hobbies.
Women who work at an average office for example may have zero chance at ever progressing up the ladder but in my experience of meeting them, not many of them have any ambition anyway.
If you ask me I would say Japanese society is light years AHEAD of their eastern and western neighbours. Crime rates, poverty rates, happiness rankings etc etc.
I know where I'd rather live.
You wrongly assume that Japanese girls want to have a career but are being stopped by "evil" men, this really isn't the case. If I was to ask a random girl on the street who was say 16-20 what they wanted to do in the future, I'd wager a majority would say they wanted to get married and have kids.
Nobody is forcing them to do this, it's just what they want.
These Japanese wives enjoy a pretty sweet life, they have extensive social lives, hobbies and are in FULL control of the money in the house.
The husbands on the flip side work 12-17 hours a day, are given pocket money by the wife, have no time for friends or hobbies.
Women who work at an average office for example may have zero chance at ever progressing up the ladder but in my experience of meeting them, not many of them have any ambition anyway.
If you ask me I would say Japanese society is light years AHEAD of their eastern and western neighbours. Crime rates, poverty rates, happiness rankings etc etc.
I know where I'd rather live.
777
Re: Mari the Cheater
It's 4AM here, so I'm not going to explain in full detail why (will do so tomorrow, in case nobody does before me), but you are very wrong rob. Things aren't as simple as you make them out to be.
Also, most people that do write scientific papers have often lived in Japan or South-East Asia in general for decades. They don't write their stuff just from afar, they actually make field studies, question people and observe.
Also, most people that do write scientific papers have often lived in Japan or South-East Asia in general for decades. They don't write their stuff just from afar, they actually make field studies, question people and observe.
Last edited by Ap2000 on Tue May 28, 2013 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Travel back in time through the haze of memories that aren't your own
and melodies frozen in a particular place in history..
If you say run, I'll run with you
If you say hide, we'll hide
and melodies frozen in a particular place in history..
If you say run, I'll run with you
If you say hide, we'll hide
Re: Mari the Cheater
[quote="Ap2000"]
It's 4AM here, so I'm not going to explain in full detail why (will do so tomorrow, in case nobody does before me), but you are very wrong rob. Things aren't as simple as you make them out to be.
Also, most people that do write scientific papers have often lived in Japan or South-East Asia in general for decades. They don't write their stuff just from afar, they actually make field studies, question people and observe.
[/quote]
Things i've seen with my own eyes are wrong?
Also I'm not saying what anyone else said is wrong necessarily, but I find it laughable the idea that people think women in Japan are forced to do anything, that they are meek, weak little servants doing their husbands will. Which seemed to be what was being implied.
It's 4AM here, so I'm not going to explain in full detail why (will do so tomorrow, in case nobody does before me), but you are very wrong rob. Things aren't as simple as you make them out to be.
Also, most people that do write scientific papers have often lived in Japan or South-East Asia in general for decades. They don't write their stuff just from afar, they actually make field studies, question people and observe.
[/quote]
Things i've seen with my own eyes are wrong?
Also I'm not saying what anyone else said is wrong necessarily, but I find it laughable the idea that people think women in Japan are forced to do anything, that they are meek, weak little servants doing their husbands will. Which seemed to be what was being implied.
Last edited by rob on Tue May 28, 2013 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
777
-
momoirosaya
- つんく♂
- Posts: 5148
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:21 pm
Re: Mari the Cheater
The word for what you are all talking about is the "glass ceiling."
[quote="rob"]
Also I'm not saying what anyone else said is wrong necessarily, but I find it laughable the idea that people think women in Japan are forced to do anything, that they are meek, weak little servants doing their husbands will. Which seemed to be what was being implied.
[/quote]
No one seems to be saying that at all imo, there's just the fact the women are not considered to be fully equal to men in society or the workplace not only in Japan but in other countries as well.
[quote="rob"]
So many people who don't live in Japan trying to have an opinion of the general public and pointing to extreme examples to "prove" their opinions.
You wrongly assume that Japanese girls want to have a career but are being stopped by "evil" men, this really isn't the case. If I was to ask a random girl on the street who was say 16-20 what they wanted to do in the future, I'd wager a majority would say they wanted to get married and have kids.
Nobody is forcing them to do this, it's just what they want.
These Japanese wives enjoy a pretty sweet life, they have extensive social lives, hobbies and are in FULL control of the money in the house.
The husbands on the flip side work 12-17 hours a day, are given pocket money by the wife, have no time for friends or hobbies.
Women who work at an average office for example may have zero chance at ever progressing up the ladder but in my experience of meeting them, not many of them have any ambition anyway.
If you ask me I would say Japanese society is light years AHEAD of their eastern and western neighbours. Crime rates, poverty rates, happiness rankings etc etc.
[/quote]
I may not have lived in Japan as long as you, but wanting kids and to be a wife and what not is part of the culture. It is expected of them, they're not being physically forced or anything, but it's definitely part of the cultural mindset that they grew up with. I mean they even say stuff over there like "You'll make a good wife."
Also Japan also has some of the highest suicide rates in the world...
And not many people would have ambition to climb the ladder when you've already been told (or know) you definitely can't before you try.
[quote="rob"]
Also I'm not saying what anyone else said is wrong necessarily, but I find it laughable the idea that people think women in Japan are forced to do anything, that they are meek, weak little servants doing their husbands will. Which seemed to be what was being implied.
[/quote]
No one seems to be saying that at all imo, there's just the fact the women are not considered to be fully equal to men in society or the workplace not only in Japan but in other countries as well.
[quote="rob"]
So many people who don't live in Japan trying to have an opinion of the general public and pointing to extreme examples to "prove" their opinions.
You wrongly assume that Japanese girls want to have a career but are being stopped by "evil" men, this really isn't the case. If I was to ask a random girl on the street who was say 16-20 what they wanted to do in the future, I'd wager a majority would say they wanted to get married and have kids.
Nobody is forcing them to do this, it's just what they want.
These Japanese wives enjoy a pretty sweet life, they have extensive social lives, hobbies and are in FULL control of the money in the house.
The husbands on the flip side work 12-17 hours a day, are given pocket money by the wife, have no time for friends or hobbies.
Women who work at an average office for example may have zero chance at ever progressing up the ladder but in my experience of meeting them, not many of them have any ambition anyway.
If you ask me I would say Japanese society is light years AHEAD of their eastern and western neighbours. Crime rates, poverty rates, happiness rankings etc etc.
[/quote]
I may not have lived in Japan as long as you, but wanting kids and to be a wife and what not is part of the culture. It is expected of them, they're not being physically forced or anything, but it's definitely part of the cultural mindset that they grew up with. I mean they even say stuff over there like "You'll make a good wife."
Also Japan also has some of the highest suicide rates in the world...
And not many people would have ambition to climb the ladder when you've already been told (or know) you definitely can't before you try.
rikako♡eripon♡airi