6th Gen are Racist!

[DarkRidley]

I don't necessarily blame the girls for this entirely, but to an extent they need to take responsibility for their own ignorance. Nonetheless, I think there are probably bigger racist fish to fry in Japan than a few stupid pop stars doing a offensive Korean impression, like actual Koreans families who've been living there for generations and still face discrimination in varying forms. The girls do need a more responsible manager, though, clearly.



Still, why are the fans so furious and butthurt? My God, all I'm seeing is this loud, garbled reaction of "HOW IS THEY RACIST, THEY IS ASIAN??" Is it so damned hard to accept that the girls could be culturally insensitive or could offend someone? They're pop stars. The likelihood is that they do not have a well-rounded cultural education.



I have to wonder why the news story pasted Eri's face four times in a row across the screen. Does it quadruple the offensiveness of the image? It looked absurd.

[eri]

[quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='86938' date='Nov 2 2010, 04:01 PM']it's ridiculous the amount of butthurt over it, especially when they did far more racially and culturally offensive stuff as a regular part of Hello Morning. Yossie's World Joke Show, anyone? Lucy fucking Goto?!?[/quote]



<img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wheely:' /> Because Euro-Americans don't give a shit what Japan says. The line of reasoning often is, "They are just funny gooks anyhow. We "beat" them in the war and look down on them." Also, white people are realllllllllly cherished as the ideal "Other." Young white people invariably have more positive experiences in Japan because Japanese people are still going to kiss their asses as the most beautiful, amazing, suteki! are you Brad Pitt? English-speaking race of people. This extreme perception leads to a lot of offensive bs against whites too, especially if you're older and REALLY when you can understand Japanese and figure out that everyone is treating you like a specimen and not a regular human being.



Differently, Koreans and Chinese care a lot because they are still dealing with the long reach of colonialism where Japanese pretty much thought they were white and looked down on the barbaric, ugly hordes of Asians. It should be remarkably telling that these Japanese girls are doing "squint eyes" as if they were not Asians themselves (because they do not perceive themselves to be so). The "butthurt" comes from an entire legacy of bullshit racism between Japanese and the rest of Asia, especially when Japan likes to recycle theories of their own specialness and keep out any foreigners.



btw, I read this the other day: http://japanfocus.org/-Mark-Caprio/3438

It made my blood boil.



[quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='86969' date='Nov 3 2010, 01:19 AM']And, Strawberry, the whole problem is not that these couple of girls didn't think it was wrong, it's that the whole damn country doesn't realize it's wrong. I can't say how many times I'd be baffled at Japanese racial and cultural ignorance/insensitivity. ...



I'm not defending them at all, but I think the blame lies with their society and not dumb little girls.[/quote]



The thing that disappoints me most is, I realize how STUPID the girls are. Most of them stopped formal education or taking education seriously at like, age 13 and now they are adults. Suddenly I feel sick knowing I've been on a fan board for the Japanese equivalent to a B-grade Disney tween star. There are stupid Americans that would replicate Hannah Montana but the backlash started....with other Americans! The Japanese formal response to this will never be a recognition of why it is wrong. The mainstream reaction will be "they shouldn't embarrass Japan" and the right wing reaction will be "LOLZ I'm so sick of the Korea Wave and how dare you criticize our darling idols?"

[strawberryjam]

I was curious what eri's response would be. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':weeeh:' />



I like it. It sums up a lot of stuff I couldn't have said myself. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... umbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wheely:' />

[Ap2000]

[quote name='eri' post='86979' date='Nov 3 2010, 12:44 PM']http://japanfocus.org/-Mark-Caprio/3438[/quote]



"Japan did not want to annex Korea. Koreans came to Japan and asked to be annexed."



The fuck !?

That guy better go to an university and fucking learn about the country he's living in.



Reading such things sometimes makes me question my interest in Japan, but luckily I know several young japanese that are completely different than that.

[Gerald]

What was the actual context of the girls doing their "impersonation"?



Was it a "I hate slanty-eyed Koreans" or "Koreans look cute with their slanty-eyes" kind of thing?

[al kusanagi]

Supposedly it was like "Eri, think of a cute pose," and Eri did it and said that that's what she thought Korean people looked like.



I think what really put it over the top was Reina's follow up post: "Rook at me! I'm Koleen! Ching-chong ching-chong! Me eaty yo rittle doggy!!!" Also, the accompanying picture of her digging up and pissing on Anne Frank's corpse was probably in bad taste.

[Madara]

I think the war going on at Tokyohive is even better. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... iggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wheely:' />

I'm not even touchin' that place. I'm not fond of the K-pop genre as a whole, so I'd have no mercy for those fans...



And, Strawberry, the whole problem is not that these couple of girls didn't think it was wrong, it's that the whole damn country doesn't realize it's wrong. I can't say how many times I'd be baffled at Japanese racial and cultural ignorance/insensitivity. It's really only the Japanese that have spent significant time abroad that get it. more than once I'd sit a Japanese friend down and explain to them why it is a problem and their reaction would be "Oh man. I didn't realize. I'm sorry," so it's not a lack of empathy or whatever, it's just something wrong with their cultural education as a whole. yes, their history with both Korea and China does escalate this kind of situation, but I've seen just as many incidents against Americans (both white and black), Hispanics, Indians, etc. all on popular Japanese prime time shows.



I'm not defending them at all, but I think the blame lies with their society and not dumb little girls.



Also, it might just all be my insomnia and allergy medication talking...

Last Friday at Asia Society here in NYC, I watched a good documentary by a young American filmmaker called "Live from Tokyo," about "Live Houses" in Tokyo where bands pay to play. There was much discussion in the film of cultural influences and one American musician there pointed out that the great majority of Japanese have absolutely no contact with foreigners. There was more to it than that, but that's all I recall right now. Just buttressing the point that, despite the worldwide spread of anime and manga (and, to a much lesser extent, J-rock and J-pop), not to mention cars and VCRs, it's still an incredibly insular culture. (Just as much of America has been for centuries--although even the heartland is now being forced to confront immigration.)



But our Eri's comment...

Japanese pretty much thought they were white and looked down on the barbaric, ugly hordes of Asians. It should be remarkably telling that these Japanese girls are doing "squint eyes" as if they were not Asians themselves (because they do not perceive themselves to be so)

...addresses the whole issue of how Japanese see themselves and the way Japanese characters in anime and manga are often depicted as blond and blue-eyed and rarely look Japanese. In fact, the question I get the most in my lectures on the subject is why the characters in anime and manga look white.

[eri]

[quote name='Madara' post='87006' date='Nov 3 2010, 09:44 AM']...addresses the whole issue of how Japanese see themselves and the way Japanese characters in anime and manga are often depicted as blond and blue-eyed and rarely look Japanese. In fact, the question I get the most in my lectures on the subject is why the characters in anime and manga look white.[/quote]



I really want to stay out of this thread because I inevitably get pissed off about the state of the universe and waste time...

but I want to comment on this because my first post was very casually/sloppily worded.



Japanese people do not literally think they look "white" or simply idealize a standard of Caucasian-features. This line of thinking is REALLY common among the Americans I know and it

1. can be an ethnocentric way of interpreting a very different visual system of signification

2. naturalizes racial phenotypes (meaning, white people do not have bubble eyes and asians do not have 'slant' eyes)

3. generally simplifies racial consciousness in Japan to an unhelpful degree



So if Sailor Moon has yellow hair and blue eyes, she is not necessarily perceived as being "blond and blue eyed." However, there are all sorts of layers of racial encoding that have built onto a "yellow-haired" image -- it definitely does play upon the exotic quality of blondness and Westerness.



I do think that notions of what is "normal" and "different" always exaggerate physical signs of difference. The mm girls would never say they look "white" with their (fake, ahem) double eyelids but they strongly think there is a distinct and visual way to racially differentiate other Asians and Japanese people. And in demonstrating this, they take the standpoint of the "Westerner who looks" upon Asia by utilizing the racist trope of slanty eyes. It is totally, totally bizarre and yet totally, sadly unsurprising.



I know S. Koreans are psycho nationalistic but I've never heard a Korean deny that they were also Asians. I have heard multiple times that Japanese people are NOT Asian and remain racially distinct. (This is a lie, by the way, but this post is already in tl;dr territory)

[Ap2000]

[quote name='Madara' post='87006' date='Nov 3 2010, 06:44 PM']...addresses the whole issue of how Japanese see themselves and the way Japanese characters in anime and manga are often depicted as blond and blue-eyed and rarely look Japanese. In fact, the question I get the most in my lectures on the subject is why the characters in anime and manga look white.[/quote]



I'm not sure if "looking white" is correct here, since in anime (manga is 95% black/white/gray only anyway) you also see a big amount of characters with red, blue, green etc. hair. I think the different hair colors are simply used to make it easier to differentiate between the characters and being able to recognize them faster. So you have the blonde, the brunette, the black-haired, the blue/green/magenta-haired and so on boys and girls in an anime.

I can't think of an anime where most of the characters are blond and blue-eyed.

[AEUGNewtype]

Hahahaha, you're such a vehement instigator, Al. This is amazing.

[al kusanagi]

I can't take all the credit. This all started in the HP spam thread and some enterprising mod turned it into this lovely thread.



And, you know, with even more Chinese and Taiwanese news reports popping up about this situation, I think I'm beginning to see who the REAL racists are. I know Japanese televised news hasn't covered it. Has any major Korean news outlet even mentioned it?

[Gerald]

[quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='87005' date='Nov 3 2010, 05:34 PM']Supposedly it was like "Eri, think of a cute pose," and Eri did it and said that that's what she thought Korean people looked like.[/quote]

OMG, the racist bitch, she thinks the Koreans look cute because of the shape of their eyes, a public beheading is too good for her <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... dammit.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dammit:' />.



OK, it might not be very PC and possibly a touch thoughtless but it seems to have been done in innocence with no racist intent. Mountains and molehills spring to mind.



If the blog item hadn't have been taken down it would probably been largely ignored, let's hope it's a nine day wonder.

[Ap2000]

[quote name='The Turtle Moves' post='87018' date='Nov 3 2010, 11:14 PM']done in innocence with no racist intent.[/quote]



Ignorance is no excuse.

[al kusanagi]

That is definitely not true. Ignorance is ALWAYS an excuse, usually the first. It's just a stupid, unacceptable one.

[Gerald]

Oh come on, ignorance is a perfectly valid excuse in this instance. If you are unaware that you are doing something that might upset somebody in another country you cannot and should not be punished for it. By all means tell Eri and Reina that would they did might cause offence and even get them to apologise.



People sometimes inadvertantly cause offence to other people on this BBS, generally an explanation that they didn't realise they were upsetting anybody and an apology suffices or are we judging idols by a different set of rules to those we abide by ourselves?

[Ap2000]

[quote name='The Turtle Moves' post='87027' date='Nov 4 2010, 01:00 AM']Oh come on, ignorance is a perfectly valid excuse in this instance. If you are unaware that you are doing something that might upset somebody in another country you cannot and should not be punished for it. By all means tell Eri and Reina that would they did might cause offence and even get them to apologise.



People sometimes inadvertantly cause offence to other people on this BBS, generally an explanation that they didn't realise they were upsetting anybody and an apology suffices or are we judging idols by a different set of rules to those we abide by ourselves?[/quote]



In my opinion there's difference wether you say something specificly to a person or if you make a blog entry about it and know many people are going to read it.



It was really, really dumb of both and I certainly do think less of them in the way that I just realized how very naive they are.



EDIT:

I also think nobody here has ever insulted anybody in a "racial" way. (and is still around)

[al kusanagi]

But again, how can you be aware that it's wrong when it's culturally acceptable where you're from, or at least no one cares.



Here's a fun example from the first week I moved to Japan full time: Myself and a Canadian dude had just been picked up at the capital city of the prefecture by our bosses and were being taken to the towns where we'd be working, which were pretty close to each other. On the way, we stop for lunch at a restaurant. he's totally new to Japan, so I recommend the ever-awesome tonkatsu bento. We get our food and start to eat. The guy nonchalantly reaches over and picks up the bottle of soy sauce and starts pouring it onto his rice. His boss FREAKS and literally yanks the bottle out of his and and starts chewing him out, "You don't do that to rice!" The poor dude is speechless. I had the advantage of previously living in Japan as a student, so I understood a lot of Japanese eating "rules," but, really, for and American (or Canadian I guess) if you were eating rice in a restaurant, it's highly likely you'd be having it in a Chinese restaurant. And what do you do? you pick up that funny looking bottle and pour it all over your rice to flavor that shit up. It's totally natural- You're in a restaurant, you've got rice, the bottle is right there. It's what you do! Luckily I was able to explain the situation to the boss from our point of view, but it was a totally innocent action on the guy's part only to get an insane reaction in return.

[Ap2000]

[quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='87031' date='Nov 4 2010, 01:20 AM']But again, how can you be aware that it's wrong when it's culturally acceptable where you're from, or at least no one cares.[/quote]



Who says there is good or wrong anyway ? Let's eat some fried babies !



As for your story; if I go into a country (which is again something completely different than posting on a blog, but oh well) I'd read up on a lot of shit before going there.

Whenever I have encountered new food or have been going to a non-austrian/german restaurant I ask if the food is eaten in a specific way. I did this with my English and broken Japanese when I was in Japan too. Especially in a land like Japan where good manners and behaving to a "codex" is important.



EDIT:

Just to clarify, this does not include satire.

[Special Needs Tricycle]

[quote name='The Turtle Moves' post='87027' date='Nov 3 2010, 08:00 PM']Oh come on, ignorance is a perfectly valid excuse in this instance. If you are unaware that you are doing something that might upset somebody in another country you cannot and should not be punished for it. By all means tell Eri and Reina that would they did might cause offence and even get them to apologise.



People sometimes inadvertantly cause offence to other people on this BBS, generally an explanation that they didn't realise they were upsetting anybody and an apology suffices or are we judging idols by a different set of rules to those we abide by ourselves?[/quote]

This. It was dumb of them, but you really cannot blame them. On top of being a mostly homogeneous country, they're not really taught any of these things in school and a large part of your society is like that. Most Japanese people I've talked to about racism don't see perpetuating stereotypes or anything of the sort is racism, and that it's only racist if you outright say that you hate <type of people> and are surprised to hear otherwise. I do think it's mainly to do with being a homogeneous country though. :X There's not really anyone in Japan to be offended by it.

[al kusanagi]

You go into a bathroom. There is soap and a bathtub. You fill it up, get in, wash, empty it, clean it up. That's what you do with a bath tub. As far as you've ever been told, that's what every fucking civilized nation on the planet does with a bathtub! You do the same thing in Japan, you'd get a freaked out response like the poor rice dude.



Remember, the majority of people you meet throughout your day are idiots. Now factor that by the entire population of the world. Yes, there are some of us to actually bother learning about the places and cultures we'd be going to, but the vast majority can't be bothered or seriously think everywhere will be just like their country but with funny food.

[Ap2000]

[quote name='Special Needs Tricycle' post='87034' date='Nov 4 2010, 01:33 AM']a mostly homogeneous country[/quote]



In my studies I've learned that this is not true.

Japan likes to see and portray itself as a homogeneous country, but it's not.

There are many people that have a different cultural or origin backdrop than "the Japanese" do. The Ainu, the Ryukyu people, Koreans, Chinese and so on.

If you want to know more about their situation, I have uploaded an excerpt we were discussing in our first semester at university:



http://rapidshare.com/files/428774937/Weth...of_Japan_1_.pdf



It might not be a melting pot like the USA or a cultural mosaic like Canada, but imho calling it a mostly homogeneous country is wrong.

[Special Needs Tricycle]

I mean social-wise, if that makes sense. I'm well aware of the fact that there's not just 1 set of Japanese people that live there, but you rarely actually hear about people classifying themselves or others as Ainu or Ryuukyuu moreso than Japanese. The closest you'll get to that is "I'm from Okinawa." That and there's still few enough Zainichi to still call Japan homogeneous.

[al kusanagi]

The Chinese and Koreans snuck in. The others can stay just 'cause Japan feels a little bad about what they did to them.



Japan is racist as fuck, but they don't realize it, and that's pretty much the whole thing. I got personal anecdotes for days:



A young woman from China I taught who was an office worker, and her younger college student sister. Taught her for like two years, everyone know she was Chinese, a little bit weird but a total sweetheart that everyone liked. She worked her butt off and always tried her hardest to learn both Japanese and English, as well as support her and her sister. totally admirable. Then one day, again, after years of knowing the other students, she mentioned in conversation, "Oh, I was just born in China and grew up there. I'm not Chinese. Both my parents moved there from Korea." You could literally see peoples posture and expressions changed, and from then on a number of them treated her differently. How shitty is that?



My friend Hsiang, Chinese American born and raised in Cali. We'd be hanging out and people would compliment him on his English, he'd answer them in not quite fluent Japanese and they'd look a bit puzzled. He'd say, "Oh no, I'm Chinese," and they'd be like "Oh," and walk away, often to a "Fuck you then," from him. However, when he answered, "Oh no, I'm American," totally different response.



My friend Aya, who was one of the rare aforementioned Ainu and the only one that I ever met (that I was aware of at least) in my time in Japan. Some people would look at her and assume she was a foreigner and try and speak English to her, which, of course, she doesn't really speak since she's lived her whole life in Japan. She's like, "No, I'm from Hokkaido," and then get a response like "Oh, you're half Japanese? That's why you're so pretty," or some condescending shit like that. I guess that was something she grew up with, so she'd just nod and not even argue the point.



I mean, come on! What the fuck, people! Seems totally obvious that it's wrong, but again, not to them. I'm not saying it's right by any means, but you gotta see things from their (narrow) point of view.

[Pucchi-Mo]

I was shocked to see that this topic transformed into its own thread, but I guess since news stations are now talking about it, this is the least strange place for it to be discussed. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dammit:' />



Well, anyone who wanted rebellious, edgy Reina back, I think we have her.



[quote name='DarkRidley' post='86977' date='Nov 3 2010, 07:21 AM']I don't necessarily blame the girls for this entirely, but to an extent they need to take responsibility for their own ignorance. Nonetheless, I think there are probably bigger racist fish to fry in Japan than a few stupid pop stars doing a offensive Korean impression, like actual Koreans families who've been living there for generations and still face discrimination in varying forms. The girls do need a more responsible manager, though, clearly.



Still, why are the fans so furious and butthurt? My God, all I'm seeing is this loud, garbled reaction of "HOW IS THEY RACIST, THEY IS ASIAN??" Is it so damned hard to accept that the girls could be culturally insensitive or could offend someone? They're pop stars. The likelihood is that they do not have a well-rounded cultural education.[/quote]

They can't fry it, it got away, and let me tell you,

that bigger racist fish they let slip was huge.

(そうだ　そうだ　そうだ　全く その通り)



Very likely that the idols lack a well-rounded cultural education. Heck, I think it was Reina who didn't realize where Japan was located on the map. It was on an old Utaban episode. I think that should be more offensive.



Speaking of pouring soy sauce on rice...

Can we just drench Eri in water and put this behind us?

[al kusanagi]

Well, obviously the whole damn situation has spiraled out of control. I'd suggest that UFA hire my hero to perform damage control for the situation.



Oh, man. I would pay any amount of money to see Eri or Reina make an apology video like that.

[DarkRidley]

I'm inclined to agree with Ap here. I don't see why Eri and Reina shouldn't be blamed, or be "less responsible" simply because of cultural differences. I've never understood why people factor intention into their ethics rather than consequences. They have to take responsibility for the offence that they caused, no matter how inadvertently. Obviously, they can't be totally blamed for simply being ignorant in a country where there are more pronounced problems regarding this sort of thing, but the fact is, the consequence of their actions here is that people were offended and upset. How can that be excused simply because they meant no harm, or because it's linked to a wider issue of discrimination in Japan? It won't make a damn bit of difference to the people who took offence at it.



On the other hand, I don't think the girls are solely to blame, hence my earlier comment. I'd say that it's also the manager's responsibility for allowing them to post it.

[quote name='CO2 Blasted Idols' post='87043' date='Nov 4 2010, 02:44 AM']They can't fry it, it got away, and let me tell you,

that bigger racist fish they let slip was huge.

(そうだ　そうだ　そうだ　全く その通り)[/quote]

It took way too long to get that reference for someone who actually likes Chokkan. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... nfused.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dammit:' /> Time to get some sleep, I think.

[al kusanagi]

What consequences? Are their massive Korean album sales going to go down? Other than some labels making money off their current minstrel show of a "Korean boom," no one IN Japan gives a shit. It's all amounting to k-pop net nerds looking for a reason to flame j-pop and for China to keep maintaining their current hate-on against Japan.



As pointed out here and elsewhere on the net, you can get on youtube and find dozens and dozens of instances from ultra-popular prime time Japanese television shows that are far, far, far more directly offensive to many, many, many races. Why the hell is this minuscule incident getting all those fags so butthurt.



GIMME MY GODDAMNED SAYU BLOG BACK, FUCKERS!!!

[al kusanagi]

Aww... You know, I had one more awesome rant left in me about how apologizing would be far worse for them than not.



Anyway, remember back when the 6th Gen were innocent, adorable moppets?

[al kusanagi]

Woot! Triple post!



Sayu's back to blogging. She apologized for being thoughtless and making everyone worry about her, and thanked everyone for all their supportive comments (well over 2000). She said she learned a lot and will be more considerate of people's feelings and just really, really thanked all the fans that stuck with her through the last couple of days.



<img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... #>/wub.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dammit:' />



edit: Reina finally posted several hours later and while Sayu wrote and eloquent essay, Reina was all "Shit happened. My bad."

[AEUGNewtype]

[quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='87055' date='Nov 3 2010, 11:58 PM']She apologized for being thoughtless[/quote]

I don't know why she apologized for something that's a permanent trait for her and she'll never be able to change. She's a brain-dead cunt <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dammit:' />