6th Gen are Racist!

[Shoujo Q]

[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' post='87057' date='Nov 4 2010, 07:42 AM'][quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='87055' date='Nov 3 2010, 11:58 PM']She apologized for being thoughtless[/quote]

I don't know why she apologized for something that's a permanent trait for her and she'll never be able to change. She's a brain-dead cunt <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dammit:' />

[/quote]



Did you really need to call her that? :< She's also far from brain dead.

[Jessui]

Reina's totally looks like something a staff member threw together. With Sayu's you can actually tell she wrote it, but I don't know about Reina <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... hahaha.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dammit:' />



Anyways, I guess... back to normal?

[Haru]

Wait, why did Sayu have to apologize? She was the only sixth gen-er that wasn't involved.

[Tsujiji]

@Haru → Sayu hates Korea too (not really.) but she used bad judgement as well. I think she was just swifter with getting her photos down.

[DarkRidley]

[quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='87049' date='Nov 4 2010, 03:43 AM']What consequences? Are their massive Korean album sales going to go down? Other than some labels making money off their current minstrel show of a "Korean boom," no one IN Japan gives a shit. It's all amounting to k-pop net nerds looking for a reason to flame j-pop and for China to keep maintaining their current hate-on against Japan.



As pointed out here and elsewhere on the net, you can get on youtube and find dozens and dozens of instances from ultra-popular prime time Japanese television shows that are far, far, far more directly offensive to many, many, many races. Why the hell is this minuscule incident getting all those fags so butthurt.[/quote]

I agree. There are worse things to worry about, and this fuss is preposterously excessive. My point, however, was that no matter how small they are, negative consequences are negative consequences, and they have to be accounted for. Of course, these consequences are small, but it's much too easy to brush responsibility off and say that the girls can't be blamed just because of that.

[eri]

[quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='87049' date='Nov 4 2010, 03:43 AM']It's all amounting to k-pop net nerds looking for a reason to flame j-pop and for China to keep maintaining their current hate-on against Japan[/quote]



No...





but whatever. LOLZ! AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T EFFECT ME AND MY FANDOM, ITS COOL. JAP GIRLZ ARE CUTE LOLZ!



And goodbye to this thread, forever.

[Pucchi-Mo]

Sayu is almost making a Jun Jun face in the 2nd picture. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dammit:' />

Chinese headlines tomorrow, just wait.



Was that set of images in the same context? I feel like I saw that a while ago.

That one just looks like they're making faces at a camera.

They like to do things with their eyes.

They tape the corners sometimes to look old, like Makoto on H!M.

Old men need to boycott these hateful bitches.

[Tsujiji]

It's not old~ Reina is wearing the same outfit/hairstyle as the Eri photos. (Not that Reina strays very far from that hair style anyways~ <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... hahaha.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hahaha:' /> ) But I don't know the context it was in. I wasn't one of the people quick enough to catch it on Shigepinku's blog the first time around. I am assuming it was in similar context being that she apologized for it and has been in sensitivity training over the past 3 days with the other Eri and Reina~

[Pflaume]

[quote name='PQ' post='87058' date='Nov 4 2010, 09:34 AM'][quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' post='87057' date='Nov 4 2010, 07:42 AM'][quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='87055' date='Nov 3 2010, 11:58 PM']She apologized for being thoughtless[/quote]

I don't know why she apologized for something that's a permanent trait for her and she'll never be able to change. She's a brain-dead cunt <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hahaha:' />

[/quote]



Did you really need to call her that? :< She's also far from brain dead.

[/quote]



Seconded.

[al kusanagi]

The Sayu pictures come from Reina's second post titles something like "I'm liking this now," where she said she grabbed Sayu and asked her to pose like that too. It's quite possible that Reina could have just said "Do this! Okay, now let's take one like this!" and my dear sweet pure angel Sayu did it completely with no context thinking they were just making faces.



Reina's a filthy, manipulative whore for putting my Sayu through all that.



And remember, tenet one of the Book of Sayumi is "Haters gonna hate," so whatevs...

[Shoujo Q]

For those who don't speak the Japanese. Arama was nice enough to gather together some translations.

[Joel]

Not gonna lie. Sayumi kinda looks freakin' adorable in that pic.

[rob]

You know.... I have lived in Japan for almost 10 years now and if something happens that I might get offended by I always remember a lesson a teacher taught me WHEN I WAS THREE FUCKIN YEARS OLD.



Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.



Grow the fuck up, as Al said there are far worse shit in prime time shows, and in the UK and the US in years gone by, why did these comedy shows say or do such things? BECAUSE IT WAS FUCKIN FUNNY.



all this PC bullshit really pisses me off, I have been on the blunt end of racist remarks and you know what I do? I turn around and walk away, anyone who would say something genuinely racist TO MY FACE isn't worth my time.



This isn't racist in any way shape or form, if you're offended by this then you are immature in the extreme.



I was never offended by the big nose western outfits used in haromoni.... were any of us offended by those? HELL NO.



AND WHYYY?? because it was A FREAKIN JOKE....



sigh, the world has gone mad.

[Gerald]

[quote name='rob' post='87087' date='Nov 5 2010, 04:26 AM']Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.



Grow the fuck up, as Al said there are far worse shit in prime time shows, and in the UK and the US in years gone by, why did these comedy shows say or do such things? BECAUSE IT WAS FUCKIN FUNNY.[/quote]

How many different countries have The Simpsons portrayed in a less than flattering light, from memory, France, Britain, Brazil, China, Korea, Canada, Australia and probably a lot more. And we laugh, why? see above.

[DarkRidley]

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.

You take that to be a reasonable maxim? I mean, language forms a pretty integral part of our reality. People saying racist things may not directly hurt anyone physical, but it's a big part of what enforces racist power structures. Sure, that rule might apply if you're six and someone calls you a poopyhead, but that's not the situation here.

all this PC bullshit really pisses me off

I don't understand why so many people are against political correctness as a general principle. Offending people is not good. Just because you are not offended by someone's racist shit does not mean everyone else should be the same or else they're immature. Racism won't go away on its own. To be fair, PC terms can be used as a cover for intolerance. It's not great that right-wing Americans insult Obama by using words like "socialist," "Kenyan," "Muslim," etc. as placeholders for "nigger," but it's better than the alternative. Have some tact.

Grow the fuck up, as Al said there are far worse shit in prime time shows, and in the UK and the US in years gone by, why did these comedy shows say or do such things? BECAUSE IT WAS FUCKIN FUNNY.

I don't see what you trying to say here. Shows like The Simpsons and South Park are made to be deliberately offensive and absurd. Everybody knows this. The problem with racism on Japanese television is that a lot of it isn't necessarily tongue-in-cheek.

This isn't racist in any way shape or form, if you're offended by this then you are immature in the extreme.

It's racist. Inadvertently or not, what the girls are doing recalls old colonial Japanese perceptions of Asians as racially inferior and different from Japanese, as has already been explained in this thread. These issues still run deep across China and Korea today, largely because of the pseudoscientific racial bullcrap that the Japanese Empire imposed on them. Are there worse issues of discrimination against Koreans and Chinese in modern Japan that deserve more attention over this? I would argue yes, and that this is, to a certain extent, a red herring. But it's equally wrong to dismiss this as non-racist, harmless, stupid, etc. and to claim that the offended are immature. There are deeper cultural issues at play here.

[eri]

Oh God thank you DarkRidley. I was beginning to despair that I was the only person with some semblance of reason here.



I find it very odd how problems of racism are always reduced to simply being "offended" or as the etiquette of being "PC." I also find it strange how racism has been minimized as the extreme, hateful, and conscious acts done by a KKK or Japanese neo-nationalist member instead of seeing how race (as an invented social category) was a symbolic and rhetorical tool to structurally create hierarchies. All other instances of race-symbolic words or acts are suddenly decontextualized and explained away as "oh he/she didn't MEAN it so it's cool." This is a really simplistic and uninformed way to brush off a complicated topic.



Surely, the Korean-Japanese nationals who are denied citizenship rights, are discriminated against for employment and education, and can be socially ostracized in the most heinous ways....probably do not see a photo of idols doing "chink eyes" as high on their priority list. However, they also understand that the perpetuation of racism and race-symbolism contributes to long standing discrimination. I have no idea what Allkpop is or what they are doing, but these events are not just about my-forum-your-forum but speak to events larger than your stupid fandom. Let's be respectful of that.



~

I also find it amusing when (usually white) Americans visit Japan and have their first real experience as a minority. Then, they often pronounce themselves experts on the matter even though:



1. Americans are racialized in a very different way than Koreans and Chinese. Even when they are the target of attack, the form of anti-American rhetoric, the historical layers of meaning, and the general social attitude towards it will be different. Thus, they should not try to speak on behalf of "race issues" in Japan as though their individual experiences are universal ones.



2. Assume instances of racism in Japan are equatable to the US, despite the vastly different history and circumstances of those tensions. ie. The "they should just leave" doesn't work the same way when many minorities in Japan were drafted by the imperial government prior to the Korean civil war and the dawn of Communist China. And blah blah blah.



3. Well, they ARE foreigners whereas many of the tensions in Asia are about the liminal status of Korean-Japanese and Chinese-Japanese nationals. While I am not discounting the problem of anti-American (esp towards black American) racism in Japan, I think the anxiety over inter-Asian racism comes from really different concerns and they should not be compounded as the same thing.



Edit: Btw, this isn't a jab at white people. Rather, my point is that, this board is mostly Americans and we can't decontextualize this incident and forget about the specificity of Jpn-China-Korea relations.



Now for REALS, I can't read this thread anymore.



PS. Instead of feeding some weird reactive idea that these images were "omg so not racist," why can't we come to the simple agreement that they were fucked up and came from 1. individual ignorance and 2. Japanese insularity and social notion of racial difference from other Asians. The girls apologized.

[Haru]

[quote name='The Turtle Moves' post='87101' date='Nov 5 2010, 08:44 AM'][quote name='rob' post='87087' date='Nov 5 2010, 04:26 AM']Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.



Grow the fuck up, as Al said there are far worse shit in prime time shows, and in the UK and the US in years gone by, why did these comedy shows say or do such things? BECAUSE IT WAS FUCKIN FUNNY.[/quote]

How many different countries have The Simpsons portrayed in a less than flattering light, from memory, France, Britain, Brazil, China, Korea, Canada, Australia and probably a lot more. And we laugh, why? see above.

[/quote]



Yeah, and I remember Brazil got really mad. Shame is, it did kind of portray Rio in an accurate light...not so much the rest of the country, but it was pretty close regarding Rio.



Half of this topic is TL;DR for me. But I can tell you that when Kotaku gets involved and makes a post about it, shit's bad.

[neshcom]

I am so offended. I do not like being mocked that I have to hold my eyes back to make fun of asian people, especially by yellows with already squinty eyes.



[quote name='Haru' post='87111' date='Nov 5 2010, 12:36 PM']when Kotaku gets involved and makes a post about it, shit's bad.[/quote]

And it's usually a day late! <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /lmfao.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hahaha:' />



[tinytext]I think this thread might be a playground to me. Continue your poignant discussion[/tinytext]

[al kusanagi]

Fuck y'all crackers. I'm Native American, which means I'm legally able to hate everybody.



And it took all my self control not to come down on the Kotaku article like the wrath of an angry god.

[rob]

You see, you guys taking it way too far again... sigh... let me explain one more time.



Racism is when someone HATES someone because of what race they are, Kamei, Reina and Sayumi clearly don't HATE anyone thus what they did isn't racist. simple.



When someone uses things like this to incite HATRED then its racist, but the contexts in those two cases are obviously different.



It makes me feel like screaming that a clearly intelligent individual could connect a silly joke (that was mildly amusing at best) to the struggles of WW2 affected people living in or outside of Japan, this to me is utter madness.



Someone brought up the simpsons, perfect! Homer Simpson is fat, stupid, watches football, drinks beer and is the stereotypical American right? well.. maybe not, but hell I think most American men have a little of homer in them somewhere and so the ability to use a brain cell and be able to laugh at yourself makes it not racist?

[Tsuki]

[quote name='rob' post='87127' date='Nov 5 2010, 02:38 PM']You see, you guys taking it way too far again... sigh... let me explain one more time.



Racism is when someone HATES someone because of what race they are, Kamei, Reina and Sayumi clearly don't HATE anyone thus what they did isn't racist. simple.[/quote]

First, saying you need to "explain" something in this manner that happens to be your own opinion in this matter is not conducive to any good dialogue. There's more sides to this than just what you think.



Second, no, racism is not purely about hatred. It's also based on fear and ignorance of the unknown. You should probably not talk about these matters when you don't really have that good of a grasp of them. The intention is not always the only factor. To use a terrible, but apt cliche, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[DarkRidley]

Racism is when someone HATES someone because of what race they are, Kamei, Reina and Sayumi clearly don't HATE anyone thus what they did isn't racist. simple.

Your definition is off. Let me help you:

rac·ism noun \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\

Definition of RACISM



1

: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2

: racial prejudice or discrimination

You might also want to give this a read if you think racism is limited to white hoods and lynch mobs.



So yeah, racism doesn't need to be outright hate.

It makes me feel like screaming that a clearly intelligent individual could connect a silly joke (that was mildly amusing at best) to the struggles of WW2 affected people living in or outside of Japan, this to me is utter madness.

If you don't see the connection then you don't understand the context of this "joke". The racial superiority crap that the Japanese Empire forced onto the people of Manchuria, Korea, etc. is where these modern issues have its roots, whether you want to accept it or not. Japanese theories about race centered on this idea that the Japanese were not really "Asian" but in fact separate from the Chinese, Koreans, etc., who were stupider, dirtier and so on. The blog post and the picture implicitly recalls this idea that Koreans are racially different from Japanese, slanty-eyed Asians rather than the "special" Japanese. It's subtle, but it's present. Just because the West classifies them all as Asian doesn't mean that there isn't any more inter-Asian racism, and this is an expression of it. As eri stated, it has to be treated differently from Euro-American racism as it really is a very different animal. I grant that this incident is hardly the most violently offensive thing in the world, but racism is racism, and it really should be recognised as such.

Someone brought up the simpsons, perfect! Homer Simpson is fat, stupid, watches football, drinks beer and is the stereotypical American right? well.. maybe not, but hell I think most American men have a little of homer in them somewhere and so the ability to use a brain cell and be able to laugh at yourself makes it not racist?

Again, the point is that these Japanese shows aren't satirical. No one takes any racial stereotypes in The Simpsons, South Park, Family Guy, etc. seriously. They're largely tongue-in-cheek, whereas in Japan, the racism you see on TV is not.

[Ap2000]

[quote name='eri' post='87110' date='Nov 5 2010, 05:25 PM']Oh God thank you DarkRidley. I was beginning to despair that I was the only person with some semblance of reason here.[/quote]



Uh... I was actually trying to not-defend the H!P girls too ?

I just didn't repeat everything you said already, since in general I pretty much agree with you...



[quote name='rob' post='87127' date='Nov 5 2010, 07:38 PM']When someone uses things like this to incite HATRED then its racist, but the contexts in those two cases are obviously different.[/quote]



You couldn't be more off... you do know there's also "positive racism" (positive steretypes, e.g. all north europeans are beautiful, strong, intelligent, blonde and blue-eyed), right ?



Racism comes in many forms, it's not just pure hatred.

[Gerald]

[quote name='Ap2000' post='87139' date='Nov 5 2010, 11:14 PM'](e.g. all north europeans are beautiful, strong, intelligent, blonde and blue-eyed), right ?[/quote]

Not this North European <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':omgwtf:' />.



Maybe it's time to lock this thread, people seem to be getting very hot under the collar about something that however unfortunate or uninformed was unintentional. I'm not certain that it's really helpful to lay the entire sins of Japanese racism on three idols.



I think we are all agreed everybody here abhors racism but people are entitled to their own take on what constitutes racism. It is going to depend on what country you come from and what ethnicity you are and whether you have ever suffered from it. I don't think you can have hard and fast rules about this, as in this case, context and content will always be important.



Let's agree to differ, have a big group hug and continue with our humdrum lives.

[Melon]

HEY GUYS WHAT'S GOING ON IN THIS-

[Pflaume]

I love you so much. My sides hurt. Please come bask in my love at Dragon*Con next year.



[tinytext]I agree with eri on basically everything. I am no Japan expert, but to me it's a sign of a larger issue.[/tinytext]



Also Ap, are you insinuating I'm not a goddess?

[rob]

[quote name='The Turtle Moves' post='87143' date='Nov 6 2010, 08:52 AM']I think we are all agreed everybody here abhors racism but people are entitled to their own take on what constitutes racism. It is going to depend on what country you come from and what ethnicity you are and whether you have ever suffered from it. I don't think you can have hard and fast rules about this, as in this case, context and content will always be important.



Let's agree to differ, have a big group hug and continue with our humdrum lives.[/quote]



I agree but I stand by all my points that whatever has happened here has jack shit to do with Japanese history during ww2, and don't pass off that crap about simpsons and south park being ok to do it because they are tongue in cheek and Japanese shows aren't, last time I checked you weren't involved in the production of any shows let alone know the basis of their jokes.



It is 100% wrong to say that the simpsons can poke fun at the Japanese and it to be ok and for the Japanese to poke fun at the Koreans and not be ok, IMHO as long as its only poking fun its fine, and I believe that in this current situation it was purely innocent.



I like the UNs definition of racism as it supports my point -



"the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life"



Now compare that quote to 3 silly young girls making faces on a blog.... not racism in my eyes.



As I said before, I'm a British guy and have been living and working in Japan for almost 10 years, I'm not basing my opinions on university lectures or books written by some dude, my opinions are based on my experiences, Japanese humour is a lot like British humour, it can be dark and cut to the bone but they take the piss out of themselves as a nation far more than they do to anywhere else.

[Pucchi-Mo]

[quote name='The Turtle Moves' post='87143' date='Nov 5 2010, 07:52 PM'][quote name='Ap2000' post='87139' date='Nov 5 2010, 11:14 PM'](e.g. all north europeans are beautiful, strong, intelligent, blonde and blue-eyed), right ?[/quote]

Not this North European <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />.



Maybe it's time to lock this thread, people seem to be getting very hot under the collar about something that however unfortunate or uninformed was unintentional. I'm not certain that it's really helpful to lay the entire sins of Japanese racism on three idols.

[/quote]

Yes it is, because we just happened to have 3 crosses ready. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... stling.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':omgwtf:' />



It's generating discussion on this usually quiet (other than the spam thread), can't be bothered to care about much, BBS.



I don't think it should be locked. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... pyeyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />

This is MMBBS, in your face (sorry, that's INCHES AWAY FROM YOUR FACE),

no holds barred, action packed, nonstop slugfest.

[Ap2000]

[quote name='Pflaume' post='87149' date='Nov 6 2010, 02:01 AM']Also Ap, are you insinuating I'm not a goddess?[/quote]



You're Thors designated woman, thus you are a goddess.

[DarkRidley]

I agree but I stand by all my points that whatever has happened here has jack shit to do with Japanese history during ww2,

So it's just coincidence that the girls' actions can be related to these old, familiar Japanese ideas of racial superiority? OK. This is what eri means when she talked about people decontextualising the issue. You can't apply Western concepts of racism to this. If you were talking about racism against blacks in Europe and America, you'd naturally relate it back to European colonialism, slavery, etc. For instance, the reason why the word "negro" is offensive is because it recalls old pseudoscientific classifications of race and a long, bloody history of slavery and colonialism. You wouldn't use the word to describe black people because it has those connotations, even thought the word on its own appears harmless. Similarly, this particular type of Japanese racism, and the reason for it being offensive to Chinese and Koreans, is shaped by historical forces.

and don't pass off that crap about simpsons and south park being ok to do it because they are tongue in cheek and Japanese shows aren't, last time I checked you weren't involved in the production of any shows let alone know the basis of their jokes.

.

If you don't see it as offensive, I'm not going to convince you, but it's largely an irrelevant point. Even if the Japanese TV shows that invoke racial stereotypes were just meant to be Simpsons-style satirical and funny as you claim, that doesn't remove the fact that Japan has issues with racism.

It is 100% wrong to say that the simpsons can poke fun at the Japanese and it to be ok and for the Japanese to poke fun at the Koreans and not be ok, IMHO as long as its only poking fun its fine, and I believe that in this current situation it was purely innocent.

You really can't see the difference between a satirical cartoon, which deliberately mocks modern sensibilities and parodies stereotypes, and a Japanese pop star pretending to be Korean by making "chink eyes"? This is not simply poking fun. It's like a Western pop teen doing an impression of a black guy by talking about fried chicken. If you weren't aware of the racist connotations to that, you'd call it poking fun as well, because it appears harmless without historical context.



And what does "innocence" have to do with it? Offending someone inadvertently is no different to offending them purposefully. One is not exempt from blame because they didn't know they were causing offence. When did intentions become more important than consequences?

I like the UNs definition of racism as it supports my point -



"the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life"



Now compare that quote to 3 silly young girls making faces on a blog.... not racism in my eyes.

"Racial discrimination" is not necessarily the same thing as racism. Racial discrimination is the effect of racist, but racism itself refers to large network of ideas and constructs that enforce the artificial social category of race. What the girls did is linked to that wider network of ideas, as already explained. I don't want to come off as a zealot, so I'll reiterate that I don't even see this incident as enormously important compared to other issues in Japan regarding race (and it certainly isn't enough to make me stop loving the girls), but nonetheless, it is still racist.