Happy Birthday Aika! And lets talk about wotas!

[al kusanagi]

Wota destroyed MM's popularity and scare the shit out of most normal people, as well as the idols themselves. My love of the group is the REASON I hate them. Shit, fans make me hate everything in most cases. Love anime, hate anime fans. Love tabletop RPGs, hate most of the players. And on and on. It is completely possible to love something and still be a relatively normal human being. Being a fan does not mean now fitting to some stereotype, as the vast majority of wota now do. Being a fan means you should enjoy something. That's it.



There's a saying, "My right to throw a punch ends at your nose." Well my right to enjoy concerts ended when they became filled with idiots screaming at the top of their lungs and jumping up and down chanting, taking away the entire reason for going to the damn concerts- to enjoy the music and see the girls. When that became the norm, and the concerts became a source of rage, rather than stress relief (which happens the 9th or 10th time some spaz crashes into you or lands on your ankle after jumping up and down in circles) I just said "fuck it."



And, yeah, there are a number of individual wota who are nice people in most respects, especially outside concert situations, but once that mob mentality kicks in, they become raving jackasses. Of course, you also get the classy individuals that proudly declare that they just jerked off before a handshake event and will now use that hand to touch them.



So, no. There's not a damn argument that will make me look at wota in a different light. Morning Musume went from a group that not only I, but damn near everybody enjoyed, to what amounts to a secret shame for "normal" people. Fuck wota/



PS: I hope you enjoyed your birthday, Aika.

[rob]

I think I have a man crush on Al.....



But yeh well said, although I think it's all down to personal preference and personal experience.

For example if someone loves the dancing, cheering and jumping then they will love the current shows?

I presume for example you can always choose to go in the sitting or family area?



Happy birthday to... that member that... hasnt.done.a.single.damn.thing.since.joining.



Tsunku once said she was only trying at 42%.... tbh I think 42% is her 100% she just isn't very good.



Something semi-interesting some of my kids said one class...



"eh.. aren't all the members of MM really old?"



I said no, they are around 20



"yeh... old."



So this fresh blood who aren't a disaster shy/awkward generation (looking at you 5th/6th gen) then we could certainly see a raise in MM.



*I do LOVE 5th and 6th gen of course, but I can see how they were a media disaster in terms of retaining popularity.

[EmEl]

[quote name='rob' post='91613' date='Jan 13 2011, 12:18 AM']Happy birthday to... that member that... hasnt.done.a.single.damn.thing.since.joining.[/quote]

I loved her solo song. You people are just obtuse people who didn't recognize its charm.

[Shoujo Q]

I'm just going to ignore the wota talk. ;D



Aika's been waiting to turn 18 forever, she's been carrying around the 18 candles to use on any cake she can steal (I mean that was given to her).

[Gerald]

[quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='91607' date='Jan 13 2011, 04:50 AM']Wota destroyed MM's popularity and scare the shit out of most normal people, as well as the idols themselves.[/quote]

So groups like AKB48 and Perfume etc. don't have wotas?

[Pucchi-Mo]

[quote name='The Turtle Moves' post='91645' date='Jan 13 2011, 02:58 PM'][quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='91607' date='Jan 13 2011, 04:50 AM']Wota destroyed MM's popularity and scare the shit out of most normal people, as well as the idols themselves.[/quote]

So groups like AKB48 and Perfume etc. don't have wotas?

[/quote]



and the cycle continues....



[quote name='Plum' post='91602' date='Jan 12 2011, 10:42 PM']Happy birthday, Aika.[/quote]



Also, Perfume has been the same 3 girls since becoming popular, that's a very significant factor.

Morning Musume's popularity rose when good girls were added, not snatched from us mercilessly.

[freezingkiss]

[quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='91607' date='Jan 13 2011, 02:50 PM']...you also get the classy individuals that proudly declare that they just jerked off before a handshake event and will now use that hand to touch them.[/quote]



Oh my god. That is disgusting. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... >/sick.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

[al kusanagi]

[quote name='The Turtle Moves' post='91645' date='Jan 13 2011, 02:58 PM'][quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='91607' date='Jan 13 2011, 04:50 AM']Wota destroyed MM's popularity and scare the shit out of most normal people, as well as the idols themselves.[/quote]

So groups like AKB48 and Perfume etc. don't have wotas?

[/quote]



AKB is brilliantly marketed to pander specifically to wotas. That's kind of the entire point of the group.

[showraniy]

[quote name='Em-El' post='91620' date='Jan 13 2011, 05:26 AM']I loved her solo song. You people are just obtuse people who didn't recognize its charm.[/quote]



Watashi no something Miryoku was awesome despite my inability to ever remember the name, so I'm with you on that one. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />





Also, I don't know if this is some subconscious coping mechanism, but I could swear that Perfume B-day wota vid was a joke... Am I the only one seeing that? D: I thought that dude was trolling for sure once the chipmunk shit came in.









And happy belated birthday, Aikaaaaaa! <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':weeeh:' />

[ShinUkyo]

[quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='91648' date='Jan 13 2011, 02:31 PM']AKB is brilliantly marketed to pander specifically to wotas. That's kind of the entire point of the group.[/quote]

This is true for any idol collective, sadly. AKB are just far more-blatant about this. But acting like the wotas were anything new when they invaded H!P, or that they somehow ruined it, is going a bit far. I was lucky enough to attend a Kudo Shizuka concert in 1992, and I grew up watching Onyanko Club concert tapes in the 1980's. You'll find the exact same kind of loud, obnoxious wotas at those aforementioned concerts of nearly twenty years ago. They chant along loudly, to the point where you can't hear the music too well. They scream member names obsessively, come dressed up in ludicrous outfits and adorned with concert goods, and so forth. This has always been a staple of idol pop music, whether we like it or not. And these wotas, obnoxious as they are, are the force that keep the groups selling decently over sustained periods.



We were sort of spoiled when H!P started out, as it really wasn't a traditional "idol pop" collective at the beginning. It was a SharamQ-produced set of girl groups, doing mostly rock and R&B-flavored pop music. Many of us wish they had stuck with this sound, believe me, and I have fond memories of it myself. But being realistic, groups like that can never last very long in the mainstream. Go ahead and try to name a female pop group that has remained constant in the mainstream for more than, say, four years or so. I don't mean "technically continued to release new music now and then," I mean actually selling near the top of the sales charts while having a noticeable and uninterrupted public impact. Even SPEED, heralded as one of the greats in their category, was really only in the spotlight for a mere couple years. Hoping that MM could have topped this stay, all while avoiding going the idol pop route, is too grand a dream for any of us. The public is extremely fickle, and it's an extreme rarity that any musical act can sustain for long. Female groups have the hardest time of any, sadly.



The producers have always known this, and it became more evident as the years went by. They could have chosen to stick with the mainstream-friendly stuff, and potentially had a few more blockbuster-selling singles before fading away. This or, by going the idol pop route, they can cater to a much smaller but far more loyal audience. In doing that, they managed to do what no other FEMALE artist collective has done before: have a product which, if maintained correctly, if infinitely sustainable. My prior example, Onyanko Club, was actually only around for an extremely short time (even as popular as they were.) Less-successful ones were around for even less time, from Chekkiko to Bishoujo Club. Morning Musume and H!P, having been around for more than 12 years, are unprecedented in terms of female performers.



I'm not defending the wotas, and many segments of their community freak me the hell out. But at the same time, as mentioned before, there are loads of them which are far less-intensely into it. And without them, sadly, H!P wouldn't even exist anymore. It's one of those many, lovely trade-offs we have in life. In continuation of what Al said before, some of the most-wonderful things in the entertainment world have the most-horrible general fanbases. This is true in any country, from singers to television shows to movies. This doesn't diminish the product itself, and sadly the product wouldn't be around for long periods of time without those mongoloids masses following it. Luckily, in that sea of ignorance, we have shining oases of fandom like this one. I was proud to find MMBBS in 2002, and I'm glad we're still here.

[Shoujo Q]

ShinUyko, I missed your posts of reason. Thank you that was beautiful. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... pyeyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':puppyeyes:' />

[Gerald]

[quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='91648' date='Jan 13 2011, 08:31 PM']AKB is brilliantly marketed to pander specifically to wotas. That's kind of the entire point of the group.[/quote]

So why aren't the wota destroying AKB48? A quick calculation says MM averaged just under 50,000 sales for their last 5 singles, for AKB it's nearly 700,000. That's either a hell of a lot of wota or they aren't affecting AKB popularity.



Not being argumentative, just a bit confused <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... nfused.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':puppyeyes:' />.

[Shoujo Q]

[quote name='The Turtle Moves' post='91669' date='Jan 13 2011, 06:34 PM'][quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='91648' date='Jan 13 2011, 08:31 PM']AKB is brilliantly marketed to pander specifically to wotas. That's kind of the entire point of the group.[/quote]

So why aren't the wota destroying AKB48? A quick calculation says MM averaged just under 50,000 sales for their last 5 singles, for AKB it's nearly 700,000. That's either a hell of a lot of wota or they aren't affecting AKB popularity.



Not being argumentative, just a bit confused <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... nfused.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':puppyeyes:' /> .

[/quote]



Can you calculate in the fact that people need to buy more then one AKB single if they want all the songs from the group since Akimoto cleverly split them between CDs and Oricon counts all of those CDs as one CD.

And don't come hissy fitting telling me that doesn't effect the sales because it does. They gave the fans a reason to buy more then one single and not feel guilty.

[aine]

[quote name='PKyu' post='91672' date='Jan 13 2011, 11:38 PM'][quote name='The Turtle Moves' post='91669' date='Jan 13 2011, 06:34 PM'][quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='91648' date='Jan 13 2011, 08:31 PM']AKB is brilliantly marketed to pander specifically to wotas. That's kind of the entire point of the group.[/quote]

So why aren't the wota destroying AKB48? A quick calculation says MM averaged just under 50,000 sales for their last 5 singles, for AKB it's nearly 700,000. That's either a hell of a lot of wota or they aren't affecting AKB popularity.



Not being argumentative, just a bit confused <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... nfused.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':puppyeyes:' /> .

[/quote]

Can you calculate in the fact that people need to buy more then one AKB single if they want all the songs from the group since Akimoto cleverly split them between CDs and Oricon counts all of those CDs as one CD.

And don't come hissy fitting telling me that doesn't effect the sales because it does. They gave the fans a reason to buy more then one single and not feel guilty.

[/quote]

Many artists do that and it does increase the sales but not over 10-fold. As to how they managed to grow from an underdog group directly and blatantly catered to wotas into The Cool Thing That Everyone Wants And Talks About they are now, is beyond my knowledge and understanding. And definitely beyond the scope of this thread so HAPPY BIRTHDAY AIKA!





Let's not get aggressive-defensive here, bad stuff comes out of it. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /ph34r.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':ph34r:' />

[momoirosaya]

[quote name='showraniy' post='91653' date='Jan 13 2011, 02:02 PM'][quote name='Em-El' post='91620' date='Jan 13 2011, 05:26 AM']I loved her solo song. You people are just obtuse people who didn't recognize its charm.[/quote]



Watashi no something Miryoku was awesome despite my inability to ever remember the name, so I'm with you on that one. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':ph34r:' />





Also, I don't know if this is some subconscious coping mechanism, but I could swear that Perfume B-day wota vid was a joke... Am I the only one seeing that? D: I thought that dude was trolling for sure once the chipmunk shit came in.

[/quote]



I agree, I loved her solo.



And,

that guy was joking according to his video he just posted (that I just found while trying to find his channel), but he's still a creepy wota.... I remember coming across one of videos last year when I was looking for an instrumental of an older Perfume song (before they went techno-pop) and he was explaining his love for Perfume. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... hatthe.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':puppyeyes:' />

Here's a video of him talking about his Happy Birthday video.

[eri]

[quote name='ShinUkyo' post='91665' date='Jan 13 2011, 04:13 PM']This is true for any idol collective, sadly. AKB are just far more-blatant about this. But acting like the wotas were anything new when they invaded H!P, or that they somehow ruined it, is going a bit far. I was lucky enough to attend a Kudo Shizuka concert in 1992, and I grew up watching Onyanko Club concert tapes in the 1980's. You'll find the exact same kind of loud, obnoxious wotas at those aforementioned concerts of nearly twenty years ago. They chant along loudly, to the point where you can't hear the music too well. They scream member names obsessively, come dressed up in ludicrous outfits and adorned with concert goods, and so forth. This has always been a staple of idol pop music, whether we like it or not. And these wotas, obnoxious as they are, are the force that keep the groups selling decently over sustained periods.[/quote]



Well, I'd respectfully disagree with you.



There have always been rabid fans, sure. However, there was no public consciousness or discourse about "otaku" or "wota" until a number of things came together in the mid 1990s: the internet and the fear of "nerds." Even though the concept was established in the 1980s, I'd say that it wasn't until the 1990s that the very concept of an "otaku" culture, behavior, community was established in the broader public. A lot of this had to do with the internet. Back then, fans could meet up in fanclub events, fan magazines, and otherwise show their support at concerts. With the rise of the 2-chan, suddenly wota have created their own social world, rules, and presence. Moreover, it became this tangible and public reality that anyone thought they could comment upon. All of this only strengthened the mainstream notion that "otaku" are weird socially inept shut-ins who can only communicate from the safety of their bedrooms online. Secondly, the ability for AKB to capitalize on this has far LESS to do with AKB themselves than the shifting attitude towards "wota" in general by the 2000s.



So with the rise of an "otaku" vocabulary, there are all kinds of competing images too. By the 2000s, I'd say things suddenly felt more positive because:

1. The concept of global soft power: suddenly, all these nerdy things were things that Japan should be proud of.

2. Takashi Murakami became a global art darling around early 2000 and he also made a certain "nerd" culture its own legitimate, high-art thing.

3. Densha Otoko (2004) was made nerds suddenly sweet and okay for mass consumption.

If the mass public became aware of a distinct otaku culture in the 1990s, then they kind of began to feel familiar and comfortable with the very idea by the 2000s.



Personally, I think Morning Musume caught the tail end of "otaku are creepy losers" backlash and never recovered from the decline. AKB rode the wave of otaku-pride and have transcended most of the negative connotations. Of course, its impossible to stick to this generalization when lots of other factors have impacted the decline of H!P....we can't just blame wota.



Anyway, sorry to write a 2nd dissertation on this. The most important thing of course is that it was Aika's bday and that MM is entering a 2nd renaissance under the aegis of Riho <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':puppyeyes:' />

[ShinUkyo]

[quote name='eri' post='91685' date='Jan 13 2011, 06:31 PM']Well, I'd respectfully disagree with you.[/quote]

Everything you wrote was truthful and interesting. I fail to see how what you said disproves anything in my post, however. My first statement was that the rabid type of wotas we see at H!P shows were around long before H!P itself existed. This is a fact, and I made no mention of the degree to which the social stigma existed back then. Although since it was brought up: these wota have always composed the majority of the concert crowd for idol acts, and the social stigma in this was still present long before the internet age came along. H!P didn't start off as being a true idol pop collective, anyhow, and during their brief stint in the mainstream they had better-mixed concert crowds. By the time H!P evolved fully into an idol act, however, their concert crowds took on the same wota distribution of yore.



I also pointed out that the wota are the ones who keep H!P media sales consistent, and it's thanks to this consistency that H!P even exists anymore. If H!P had refused to cater to the wota, and had been determined to stay fully mainstream-friendly, it would not exist right now. The public is fickle, and it takes an absolute act of God for any entertainment product to remain viable in the mainstream for an extended period of time. A product, once the buzz wears off, can typically only continue to thrive if it decides to cater to a hardcore/niche audience. Without that audience to support you, even if you do manage to stick around, you won't have the resources to put out enough new material. A perfect comparison, as funny as it is, would be the card game Magic: the Gathering. It's a completely different form of entertainment product, from a completely different country, yet it follows the same rules and life cycle as H!P.



Edit: In case the reference is lost on some, as it well could be, let me explain. Magic: the Gathering started off fairly low-key when it launched around 1994. But thanks to the right combination of random marketing, word of mouth, and some cosmic fluke - its popularity skyrocketed a few years into its existence. The game became literally a household word, news outlets were reporting on it non-stop, and it seemed literally everyone and their grandmother was talking about MTG for a little while. Once the inevitable buzz wore off, however, the public at large all but forgot about it. If it had been like many past buzz products, it would have faded away. Magic still continued to thrive, however, thanks to its hardcore fanbase. The hardcore Magic geeks have no problem blowing all their money on new card sets, ones which continue to be released at a rapid pace to this day. Similarly to the wota buying up everything H!P puts out, these Magic junkies continue to keep the product viable even despite the product having little to no impact on the mainstream entertainment world anymore.

[rob]

Personally I think people should like what they like and support what they want to support.



Personally for me, MM/H!P is my "make me happy" drug.



That's what I like about H!P, it makes me feel happy and I'm grateful for them to work hard and so in turn I choose to support them with purchases and recently translating blogs to try and get other to support them too.



Everyone needs a little rainbow in their lives, just the colours of those rainbows varies.

[Gerald]

[quote name='rob' post='91761' date='Jan 15 2011, 05:09 AM']Personally for me, MM/H!P is my "make me happy" drug.



That's what I like about H!P, it makes me feel happy and I'm grateful for them to work hard and so in turn I choose to support them with purchases and recently translating blogs to try and get other to support them too.



Everyone needs a little rainbow in their lives, just the colours of those rainbows varies.[/quote]

This.



I get a lot of flack from friends about liking MM and H!P but I always say listening/watching always puts a smile on my face and that's worth a lot these days. So I will continue to support H!P and buy their goods and I'll probably still be supporting MM as long as they keep performing despite Tsunku's best efforts to ruin them for me.

[Arie]

Awesome wota's;



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm6YL4yU8bQ



And off off topic,



Who's that egg with the big titties <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... wheely.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wheely:' />

[Gerald]

[quote name='Arie' post='91923' date='Jan 18 2011, 10:33 AM']Who's that egg with the big titties <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... wheely.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wheely:' />[/quote]

Way to get me staring at the chests of teenage girls <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... hatthe.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wheely:' />.

[Pflaume]

Oh, like any of you need help with that.



<------------ Talk to the avatar.

[al kusanagi]

If they weren't meant to be stared at, nature wouldn't have let them grow there.

[Gerald]

[quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='91940' date='Jan 18 2011, 05:23 PM']If they weren't meant to be stared at, nature wouldn't have let them grow there.[/quote]

"Well you see Your Honour if they weren't meant to be stared at, nature wouldn't have let them grow there."



"Case dismissed"

[Special Needs Tricycle]

Wotas did not kill H!P. Time killed H!P, just like it has every other idol that isn't in JE.



I also happen to like the wotas. :> Every wota I've talked to is extremely nice and genuinely loves H!P. You just need to look past the age, sweat, screaming and pedophilia! <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /heart.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



Happy birthday Aika!

[Pucchi-Mo]

This thread is probably over, but not before one last



CHU LU LU LU

[Haru]

[quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='91607' date='Jan 12 2011, 11:50 PM']Wota destroyed MM's popularity and scare the shit out of most normal people, as well as the idols themselves. My love of the group is the REASON I hate them. Shit, fans make me hate everything in most cases. Love anime, hate anime fans. Love tabletop RPGs, hate most of the players. And on and on. It is completely possible to love something and still be a relatively normal human being. Being a fan does not mean now fitting to some stereotype, as the vast majority of wota now do. Being a fan means you should enjoy something. That's it.[/quote]



Al, I am completely with you.

I would say about 80% of the Hello! Project fans I run into off of this site drive me up a wall. When the graduation announcement for Ai came about, H!O was in such a tizzy the site went down a couple times. All of the statuses were something to the effect of H!P WILL FAIL AFTER THIS, and THEY WON'T BE THE SAME WITHOUT AI. I got so sick of it.



The only good thing the wotas ever brought to us was the chants. Those are fun as hell.

[aisasami]

[quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='92282' date='Jan 22 2011, 01:55 PM']Wota destroyed MM's popularity and scare the shit out of most normal people, as well as the idols themselves. My love of the group is the REASON I hate them. Shit, fans make me hate everything in most cases. Love anime, hate anime fans. Love tabletop RPGs, hate most of the players. And on and on. It is completely possible to love something and still be a relatively normal human being. Being a fan does not mean now fitting to some stereotype, as the vast majority of wota now do. Being a fan means you should enjoy something. That's it.[/quote]



You summoned up what two girls who sat next to me at tonight's concert said. Yes, there are female fans (as well as elderly and under 13 fans) lurking out there but they are scared of the wotas. The girl next to me, who was 22 and her sister was 16, said she picked the family seat because she was afraid of them. Now, I am not saying that this girl is the example to go by for female fans. But rather, that most of the fans are in the back, quietly cheering for her favorite member.



Although, the concert I went tonight was about 80% wota.



OT: I wish they didn't change their shirts right outside the hall like what I saw tonight. I know they were sweating but come on, use the bathroom and not scare people away.

[Haru]

Aisa, I wasn't the one that said that. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hmph:' /> But you've brought up a valid point.

If I was next to some of those guys, the guys that cream themselves over Airi for instance, I would be the same way.