Maji desu ka SUKA! : The Thread!

[momoirosaya]

[quote name='Tsuki' timestamp='1302679418' post='97154']

[quote name='Saya' timestamp='1302676234' post='97151']

[quote name='Al Kusanagi' timestamp='1302672961' post='97146']

It's a DOLLAR!!! If you can afford overpriced Japanese singles with shipping that costs almost the same, you can afford both. You get the download the day of and the single arrives however many days later.

[/quote]

I like to have the actual case and it comes with a picture, and a dvd, and I like to play CD's on my CD player as well. I'd rather physically own something, than own it...virtually?? Plus lots of singles come with posters or photobooks nowadays so I like to have those to stick in my idol goods folder under my bed.

Lots of times I play CD's that I have since they're right next to me in my drawer, but I'm 90% less likely to listen to it on the computer unless it's been stuck in my head all day I've listened to Short Cut a million times since I have the CD but if I'm on the computer I'll listen to the song that I'm obsessed with lately. I like randomly taking out a CD and being like "I haven't listened to this in a while!" Rather than going through the thousands of songs in my iTunes library. It's just my personal taste/choice. I've always been like this when it comes to download vs physical object, whether it's a game, movie, book, cd...

[/quote]

Er, you did read he said you can probably afford both, right?

[/quote]

Ah no, I kinda misread that part whoops~ Sorry!

[Milly]

[quote name='Al Kusanagi' timestamp='1302622846' post='97091']

If their first new audition in years, one of their catchiest singles in years, and most promotion in years isn't enough to bring in new fans, then why even bother?

[/quote]

I don't think they've had that much more promotion than usual. Let's compare it to the previous single.

TV appearances:

OOLG-> Music Japan, Onryu, Happy Music, Mujack

MDSS-> Music Japan, Onryu, Happy Music, Melodix

Unless they appear on a more mainstream (not late night) show like Music Station or Hey!Hey!Hey! there won't be a significant increase in sales. They've has two small appearances on news shows, but most people probably don't even know Morning Musume has new members. Also I've hardly seen any magazines scans promoting the single, while there's AKB plastered all over the place.



OOLG had several events for the single which increased sales, especially since they would be the last single events for the graduates. On the other hand MDSS only has one event and pretty recently there were 9th gen and Morning Musume fan club events so I can see why there would be less wota buying multiple copies.



All in all I don't think the 9th gen has improved Morning Musume's popularity but I do believe they stopped the decrease to some extend with a lot of old fans moving to the new girls. Getting new fans is gonna take a lot more effort than what we've seen so far. Morning Musume's media presence is miniscule compared to AKB and Kara and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[aine]

A sad conclusion is that good music does not sell itself anymore, because a lot of recent MM singles were great or at least above-average songs. And, dare I say, progressive. But they need promotion, and MM's promotion looks like some backwards cottage business compared to the AKB's promotional behemoth. I don't know if it's a matter of not hiring the right people or not paying them enough. Probably a combination of both. A huge and successful professional PR/image/advertising campaign is no trivial matter financially, logistically and conceptually but it would pay off for sure and would let MM ride the popularity wave for the next 2 or 3 years. It just saddens me to see how they waste the potential with maybe honest but unprofessional efforts.



I would feel vaguely satisfied if MM just sat in its MM niche and catered to the 50k or so MM audience. I'm happy with their songs and I'm loyal to them just as I am to some obscure metal bands that no one ever heard about. But the difference is the latter do it for themselves and usually have other income, while the former are little money-making machines and the fact we enjoy their output is just a side-effect to the powers that pull their strings. If they don't make enough money they will get slashed, unless Tsunku feels sentimental enough to buy them out and keep pumping money in them for his own artistic satisfaction.



But I ramble. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... ek3run.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':eekrun:' />

[sadude]

[quote name='aine' timestamp='1302689944' post='97159']I don't know if it's a matter of not hiring the right people or not paying them enough. Probably a combination of both. A huge and successful professional PR/image/advertising campaign is no trivial matter financially, logistically and conceptually but it would pay off for sure[/quote]

Would it? If they already do well enough to have a few concerts per year and make money from that without overworking the girls, without spending a ton of money on PR and such, and without getting into the financial/logistic/conceptual risk game, then it's as you said: they only need to cater to its niche.



It's not that they magically would jump back up to selling a million plus, but the gains that they would get from increased PR might not be worth it.

[aine]

[quote name='sadude' timestamp='1302691244' post='97160']

[quote name='aine' timestamp='1302689944' post='97159']I don't know if it's a matter of not hiring the right people or not paying them enough. Probably a combination of both. A huge and successful professional PR/image/advertising campaign is no trivial matter financially, logistically and conceptually but it would pay off for sure[/quote]

Would it? If they already do well enough to have a few concerts per year and make money from that without overworking the girls, without spending a ton of money on PR and such, and without getting into the financial/logistic/conceptual risk game, then it's as you said: they only need to cater to its niche.



It's not that they magically would jump back up to selling a million plus, but the gains that they would get from increased PR might not be worth it.

[/quote]

I'm just concerned that being a niche/indie band and being a fully commercial pop band are mutually exclusive. Running MM even as it is now does involve a substantial number of people (writers, arrangers, assistants, make-up artists, you name it) and they all need to have their paychecks paid. And UFA's bosses (and investors?) need to see a constant stream of money trickle into their pockets, too. Obviously I don't know what the break-even threshold is, but I'm worried oscillating around 50k is just about cutting it.



I would love to see them sell a million plus of course, but I would be satisfied with, say, 300k after a decent song backed by a great campaign - even if the sales will gradually slide back to 50k again over the course of the next 10 or so singles, that would give them some financial stability. Or at least some peace of mind to me as a fan if I'm completely wrong in my speculations and ramblings.

[tsukinobyouin]

Single/album sales aren't the only factor keeping MM and other H!P acts alive. They make a lot of money on touring and concert goods. Though they don't play as many venues as they used to, H!P acts still tour like crazy. Then there's the photobooks, DVDs, etc.



There's always talk of MM going under due to low sales, but no one ever seems to be worried about Berryz, C-ute, Mano, or S/mileage disappearing. The average single sales for each of those groups/artists is about on par with MM's all-time lowest selling single. None of those artists have ever sold as much as Maji Desu Ka Ska has made in its first week. Yet S/mileage won Best New Artist last year and continues to pump out singles one after the next. It would be nice to see MM get some great promotion and see a boost in sales, but even without that I don't see them going under anytime soon. Once we start seeing less and less touring, fewer single releases, and sales dropping below Berryz/C-ute/Mano/Smileage level, then I'll really be worried.

[Pucchi-Mo]

I think if they brought THIS amount of effort to their single presence, they'd be in a better situation.



Souda! We're Alive was probably the least loved of the Golden Era singles, yet, 8 years later, that made it into something badass. (Love Machine's over use aside)



When you have something like that, that's when you should use live footage in PVs, not the random madness just stuck into the Chokkan 2 PV.



I feel like they're relying on individual girls too much, and not the total image of the group. From the way things are handled, it seems that their belief is truly "Ai Araba IT'S ALL RIGHT" (Takahashi, that is). As long as she's around, it doesn't matter what is released or how plain the PVs are. It will be interesting to see the shift in strategy when she leaves. I will give them some credit for the line distribution of Maji desu ka SKA!. It's only one time though.



I'm not saying that there shouldn't be front girls, I just mean, make the group appealing to outsiders who might have a certain assumption about MM. People who haven't seen their concerts would NEVER know that MM had that Souda! performance in them. They just think, "these are annoying/loud/hyper girls who I should hate".



No one action will magically fix this, and it might even be more difficult to tell what they shouldn't do because there isn't that big of a signal for when they really goofed. There will never be "Nacchi Scandal" level of outrage from a crappy single.

[Gerald]

[quote name='TnB' timestamp='1302657613' post='97121']

Comparing Morning Musume to international legends like The Beatles and The Rolling Stones is just absurd. Even in their top sales days, MM never came close to the fame of those groups.

[/quote]

I think you misunderstood me, I wasn't comparing MM with these groups, it was a response to Ap's comments that musicicians top out and lose sales and fans. I was giving examples of groups/singers that have had very long careers and still have sell-out concerts.



Madonna and Kylie Minogue have shown that you may have to do it by constant re-invention of themselves.





[quote name='TnB' timestamp='1302657613' post='97121']

I think you're exaggerating the popularity of EriJunLin, but the section I bolded pretty much exactly states my original point, just in a different tone. Old girls leave, new girls come in, but the MM sales stay about the same. As long as they can continue to please the fanbase they have, they aren't going anywhere. As Al said, it's sad to see these girls not get the recognition they deserve, but that's just the way things are. =/

[/quote]



But it's back to my question of what is the point of the 9th Gen, they removed three quite talented girls and replaced them by four apparently untalented girls except for Riho as a dancer. Even if they are cute and have good personalities they have almost no chance to show them except on things that only hard core fans will watch e.g. UpstreaMusume.



Sales are falling, 2007-2009 sales were over 50K now we seem to looking at figures in the 40Ks or less. The last three albums sold less than 20K. If I understand it correctly they are playing smaller venues than they were a few years back. The omens aren't good.

[Pucchi-Mo]

[quote name='The Turtle Moves' timestamp='1302733019' post='97200']

But it's back to my question of what is the point of the 9th Gen, they removed three quite talented girls and replaced them by four apparently untalented girls except for Riho as a dancer. Even if they are cute and have good personalities they have almost no chance to show them except on things that only hard core fans will watch e.g. UpstreaMusume.

[/quote]

Upstream Musume? <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... >/rofl.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



Back to the question.. I don't think the new generations are ever meant to directly replace girls who leave, they are there to solidify the future generation of potential fans (Japan's youth, who aren't in their late teens/early 20s and not yet jaded about the group.). Morning Musume has always been about the process of learning how to be a star, and taking chances on the less likely girls. Heck, 1st gen were the contest losers. We would lose this process entirely if they didn't continue making new generations. They seem fond of this strategy/gimmick? and I don't think it'll actually go away until MM does. For groups with steady lineups, they have the rest of H!P, who are younger anyway.

[Duncan]

Nobody knows who is in Morning Musume anymore. Having new members at least gives them an excuse to constantly introduce them to people. The 9th Gen push makes sense.

[al kusanagi]

They need to reboot minimoni with Riho, Karin Miyamoto and a couple of the other tykes and get the kids interested in the group again. They're not going to win the AKB/Kara type fans over anymore, so they should go after the younger demographic again.

[Shoujo Q]

[quote name='Al Kusanagi' timestamp='1302743315' post='97216']

They need to reboot minimoni with Riho, Karin Mitamoto and a couple of the other tykes and get the kids interested in the group again. They're not going to win the AKB/Kara type fans over anymore, so they should go after the younger demographic again.

[/quote]



I approve of this only if Kanon (The s/mileage one) can be in it. The 4th member can be random - face what's her name I don't care. But Riho, Karin and Kanon would be the best thing ever.

[al kusanagi]

[quote name='PKyu' timestamp='1302743535' post='97217']

[quote name='Al Kusanagi' timestamp='1302743315' post='97216']

They need to reboot minimoni with Riho, Karin Mitamoto and a couple of the other tykes and get the kids interested in the group again. They're not going to win the AKB/Kara type fans over anymore, so they should go after the younger demographic again.

[/quote]



I approve of this only if Kanon (The s/mileage one) can be in it. The 4th member can be random - face what's her name I don't care. But Riho, Karin and Kanon would be the best thing ever.

[/quote]



There you go. Make Cap'n Saki the leader to have the whole older big sister thing that Yaguchi had and we're good to go.



Get on it, Tsunku!

[tsukinobyouin]

I think you're exaggerating the popularity of EriJunLin, but the section I bolded pretty much exactly states my original point, just in a different tone. Old girls leave, new girls come in, but the MM sales stay about the same. As long as they can continue to please the fanbase they have, they aren't going anywhere. As Al said, it's sad to see these girls not get the recognition they deserve, but that's just the way things are. =/

But it's back to my question of what is the point of the 9th Gen, they removed three quite talented girls and replaced them by four apparently untalented girls except for Riho as a dancer. Even if they are cute and have good personalities they have almost no chance to show them except on things that only hard core fans will watch e.g. UpstreaMusume.



Sales are falling, 2007-2009 sales were over 50K now we seem to looking at figures in the 40Ks or less. The last three albums sold less than 20K. If I understand it correctly they are playing smaller venues than they were a few years back. The omens aren't good.

But doesn't the fact that sales were declining well before the 9th Gen came along sort of counter-act your point that the graduation of EriJunLin really hurt MM? You liked EriJunLin (me too!) and you don't like the 9th gen. It's unfortunate. But MM sales have been falling pretty much since they peaked in the Love Machine~The Peace era, and people have been ringing the death bells since then too. The adding of new members that some people think are less-talented than the ones before is nothing new - I think this debate has happened with you before. People at this forum have been bitching and moaning about every new generation added since it opened. People were asking what was the point of the 6th gen, and you're now praising the talent and importance of one of those members. Strictly speaking from a sales perspective, no new members have made up for the loss of previous ones since the 3rd gen. You might have seen a brief boost for the first single of a new generation, but sales quickly went back down and continued to fall after that. I don't really understand why you emphasize the 9th generation so much as if this cycle is any different than it has been for years.





On a different note, I also approve of Al/PKyu's Mini Moni lineup. It should be done right this time with actual singles and anime tie-ins and such!

[Melon]

AH,

It would not be MMBBS

If we did not discuss the end of MM with every single released.

[Haru]

I'm a little late, but can I please just come in and say that having Saki in the Mari position would be wonderful? Saki would be my first choice, followed by Maasa (she is Mama after all). But we'll probably end up with Mayuge like with Athena and Robikerottsu.

I've been listening to all the Minimoni songs and they're wonderful. They're all fun and playful and everything I've ever hoped for. Unfortunately, I think the only group we have right now with that kind of playful persona is S/mileage, and even they're serious sometimes (of course that's not to say Minimoni wasn't, but around the end they were, with "CRAZY ABOUT YOU" and the second album).



I want to see Petitmoni come back as well. Excluding the girls mentioned for Minimoni, plus the other ninth genners, that would be Momo, Nakky and someone else. I can't remember who.

[Noa]

For me, Saki and Maasa would ruin Minimoni. I think Chisato, Karin, Kanon, and Riho would be amazing.

For me, Saki and Maasa would ruin Minimoni. I think Chisato, Karin, Kanon, and Riho would be amazing.

[al kusanagi]

Saki would be perfect since minimoni needs the much older leader.



And as much as I love Maasa, she's anything but mini.

[rob]

Mini-Moni reboot...



Al is a fucking genius!



Up Front, sign that man up!

[Haru]

Ah, you're right, I forgot about Mama's height.

Saki get!

[Gerald]

[quote name='rob' timestamp='1302756616' post='97237']

Mini-Moni reboot...

[/quote]

<img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... #>/doh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':doh:' /> <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... ek3run.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':eekrun:' /> <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... uicide.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':suicide:' />

[michikodesu]

I like the fact that H!P had a mini-revival for the groups...........but to have another run with those groups with those names would just be....well, just be a shadow of what was. And if they made another "mini-moni" persay, the new girls would get nothing but grief (with a little bit of love) from fans who would constantly compare every move that they make with the original Mini-Moni. So honestly, no one would really be happy.



As for sales, the same thing is going on at H!O. As long as MM keeps pumping out the tunes and I find them enjoyable, I will buy them. I dont' want them to "keep up" with the other idol groups. I want them to keep doing what they do best. MM is an innovative idol group. Most fans of popular stuff sometimes lose sight of that and complain that they're not doing what they need to do to stay on the charts or keep up with sales. It's like Aine said, they are progressive. They're mainstream; but then again they're not. They don't need to appeal to all the KARA and AKB fans to stay afloat (although they do have fans in AKB and probably KARA).



Either way, I really like this single; and this is the best treatment a new gen has received for a single since Goto with Love Machine and Reina with Shabondama. But I don't think they were thinking that 9th gen was going to be the trump card to get the sales going. They were just doing what they were always doing. It has been a while since there was an audition and mention of a new generation. I think the problem is more of fan mentality than anything else. I'm ready for the next single....just so we can read the same crap all over again about sales and the decline or promotion/members/graduation/or whatever we think is going wrong.

[al kusanagi]

The demographic for a new mini moni wasn't even ALIVE when mini moni was around. They're not going to get any new older fans, they're not going to get any of the "lol lame" teen fans, but they've got a shot a getting tons of new young fans, especially by using their connections with Oha Star as promotion.

[Anderei]

I would love a Mini Moni reboot with Miyamoto Karin and Kudou Haruka. They're both so tiny it'd be adorable.

[al kusanagi]

Finished in the top 20 for week two. Not too bad.