Berryz Kobo - "Golden Chinatown/Sayonara Usotsuki na Watashi"

[Noa]

Honesty the management really fucks around with Berryz. When did Cute ever dance around in money ad fish and old prairie lady outfits?

[Shoujo Q]

I don't want to read much into it, but if labels and management are anything. Morning Musume and C-ute are both Zetima and Berryz is Piccolo Town. Now behind the scenes I don't know if that means anything, like management wise, but it could play a hand in how they are being put out there.

[tsukinobyouin]

[quote name='rob' timestamp='1367963623' post='151214']

@TnB I'm curious as to how you know the girls have zero input upon the song choices, dance moves etc. We aren't really sure how much of an input they have or don't have. AFAIK.

[/quote]



Because that's how it works in the idol industry in general. It's pretty well known that idol agencies run the show. Every time an idol gets to have input we hear about it, because it's such a big deal. Of course we can't be certain of exact detail, but it's pretty clear that they don't make any major decisions from the way they talk about hearing the songs for the first time and learning the choreography and such. Take, for example, the dreaded Pyoco Pyoco. Remember Risa and Sayu and Reina talking about how surprised they were when they saw the costumes? Remember Risa's thinly veiled disgust? Those are not the reactions of people who had a choice in the selection process. Have you noticed how Sayu constantly talks about not wanting to perform old songs anymore, yet we keep seeing Love Machine pop up? They might get a few concessions here and there, or some fun projects like the Sayu-produced mini-photobook and Maimi's upcoming self-designed photobook, but it's pretty clear that H!P girls aren't getting to say things like "Ok this song is terrible and we aren't going to do it."

[Kahoryn]

[quote name='rob' timestamp='1367963623' post='151214']

I have a new theory, I think this time next year Saki and Momoko will graduate and two new members of the 17+ age range will join, both will be kickass dancers and singers and Berryz will aim for a far more sexy image.



The years following will see, Yurina, Maasa and then Chinami graduate with again new 18-21 age range members joining.



Just a theory!

[/quote]

I find this theory to be interesting, since they've never made a move like that--adding members to replace graduating members. Although honestly, it's something I myself have thought about as well, but I would have to say I feel like they would fizzle out instead. If they did have key graduations and add new members, I would be very surprised!



I was never big into °C-ute before (I followed their first few releases back then) but upon my return to the H!P fandom, I really got into them and very easily. Meanwhile, when I listen to BK, I'm very underwhelmed. I do feel like BK has been losing steam for several years. I can pick out a couple songs I like, but the majority of them are from 2006 and prior. (Although, looking at the single rankings, they shoot up from 2007 and on... go figure!)

[Haru]

They won't graduate "single-ly" like everyone is expecting, this I'm sure of. They'll pull a Melon Kinenbi. And on the graduation subject and new generation subject, didn't Tsunku say that he thought about it but didn't because he didn't want to change the group dynamic?



Maybe because Berryz was my first true H!P group that I followed closely but I feel like every single that they put out is different. Are they all memorable? Well, not all. You have duds like Ai no Dangan and Aa, Yo ga Akeru. But check out strong songs like cha cha SING/Loving You too Much (because that was basically a double A side without the billing) and mother of god, HEROINE NI NAROU KA.



Y'all sounding like a bunch of The Turtle Moves. BERRYZ IS DOOOOOOMED AND NO ONE CARES.

[Purin-chama]

[quote name='TnB' timestamp='1368021613' post='151232']

[quote name='rob' timestamp='1367963623' post='151214']

@TnB I'm curious as to how you know the girls have zero input upon the song choices, dance moves etc. We aren't really sure how much of an input they have or don't have. AFAIK.

[/quote]



Because that's how it works in the idol industry in general. It's pretty well known that idol agencies run the show. Every time an idol gets to have input we hear about it, because it's such a big deal. Of course we can't be certain of exact detail, but it's pretty clear that they don't make any major decisions from the way they talk about hearing the songs for the first time and learning the choreography and such. Take, for example, the dreaded Pyoco Pyoco. Remember Risa and Sayu and Reina talking about how surprised they were when they saw the costumes? Remember Risa's thinly veiled disgust? Those are not the reactions of people who had a choice in the selection process. Have you noticed how Sayu constantly talks about not wanting to perform old songs anymore, yet we keep seeing Love Machine pop up? They might get a few concessions here and there, or some fun projects like the Sayu-produced mini-photobook and Maimi's upcoming self-designed photobook, but it's pretty clear that H!P girls aren't getting to say things like "Ok this song is terrible and we aren't going to do it."

[/quote]

I agree with this. I don't think think they ever have that much input on the singles themselves, but there are instances in H!P when a member got exactly what they wanted (aside from the pb you mentioned). A prime example is Yaguchi and Minimoni. I always felt that Mari was the one who inputted a lot of stuff for this group. She was the one who created the group itself, down to picking the members (not that there was a lot of short H!P members then). Sayumi has pleaded to get more lines that aren't shouting, and since Resonant Blue, I'm pretty sure the number of songs she actually has lines in has gone up drastically. But she physically didn't decide, "Oh, I get all THESE lines here." There's a difference from members working hard to get to where or what they want, and just saying their wishes out loud. I feel like Tsunku knows who is seriously ready to work and won't half ass the task when they're given it. C-ute would all work together to achieve whatever chance they were given because that has been what they've done since the beginning.

[star]

[quote name='Haru' timestamp='1368031505' post='151250']



Maybe because Berryz was my first true H!P group that I followed closely but I feel like every single that they put out is different. Are they all memorable? Well, not all. You have duds like Ai no Dangan and Aa, Yo ga Akeru. But check out strong songs like cha cha SING/Loving You too Much (because that was basically a double A side without the billing) and mother of god, HEROINE NI NAROU KA.



[/quote]

I happen to love those two songs. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /noway.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':noway:' />

Its almost certain that they will graduate together. (Because we all know it will happen eventually, hopefully far far in the future.) They'll all graduate from Berryz, but a few may go solo or form a small group in H!P, or if nothing else, become UFP general talent (Ignore that last one because I want to ignore the possibility of that happening).

[Enmiz]

^ I like those two songs a lot better than ChaCha Sing.





Berryz and Buono! are why I started following H!P. I want to like them now as much as I did then, but they are just boring to me now. And I don't want them to be. But they are.

[YuuakuRisa]

[quote name='enmi' timestamp='1368064977' post='151294']

^ I like those two songs a lot better than ChaCha Sing.





Berryz and Buono! are why I started following H!P. I want to like them now as much as I did then, but they are just boring to me now. And I don't want them to be. But they are.

[/quote]







Except with ChaCha Sing, I feel the same way. They are boring me a bit. I wasn't as excited about BerryZ single as I was with Momusu's and C-ute's. I'm on the fence about S/mileage, Samui Ne and Please Mini Skirt Postwomen are the only two I was genuinely excited about. BerryZ gets repetitive and forgettable songs a lot of the time. Be Genki even though I love that song was cringe worthy when you compare it to what the other H!P groups were releasing. It would be totally unfair for this to end in a Mano Erina type way. If they stoped dicking around and gave Berryz good singles and album songs. I found their last album to be a disappointment. Momusu's and C-ute's last albums were AMAZINGLY BRILLIANT!



If they were given good songs that the girls could fall in love with I think they would work harder. They would be passionate about the single. If Berryz were to end I think it would be a mass graduation or adding new members and the originals slowly drop off then a rebranding of the group. With the last two singles and the current one it's obvious they are trying to expand to Asia and develop a fan base there but even when Momusu was focused on that in late 2007-2010 that they got good songs that weren't...I think gimmick-like I guess. They didn't get songs just tied to Asian cultures, they got girl/women centered and mature songs to get a female fan-base in Asia.

[rob]

[quote name='TnB' timestamp='1368021613' post='151232']

[quote name='rob' timestamp='1367963623' post='151214']

@TnB I'm curious as to how you know the girls have zero input upon the song choices, dance moves etc. We aren't really sure how much of an input they have or don't have. AFAIK.

[/quote]



Because that's how it works in the idol industry in general. It's pretty well known that idol agencies run the show. Every time an idol gets to have input we hear about it, because it's such a big deal. Of course we can't be certain of exact detail, but it's pretty clear that they don't make any major decisions from the way they talk about hearing the songs for the first time and learning the choreography and such. Take, for example, the dreaded Pyoco Pyoco. Remember Risa and Sayu and Reina talking about how surprised they were when they saw the costumes? Remember Risa's thinly veiled disgust? Those are not the reactions of people who had a choice in the selection process. Have you noticed how Sayu constantly talks about not wanting to perform old songs anymore, yet we keep seeing Love Machine pop up? They might get a few concessions here and there, or some fun projects like the Sayu-produced mini-photobook and Maimi's upcoming self-designed photobook, but it's pretty clear that H!P girls aren't getting to say things like "Ok this song is terrible and we aren't going to do it."

[/quote]



I think if the song was given to Berryz and they hated it, I feel like they could at least say it wasn't good enough.... or that a dance move was just a bit silly and that they could do something else.



Seriously the dance routines that Berryz do look like a starter level dance course sometimes. Check out the latest video for the "chicken wing" dance move.... surely they are capable of so much more by now?



I think Berryz found themselves in a rut of not giving a shit about anything and that C-ute making budoukan has sparked a fire, Hopefully we'll see Berryz starting to actually try harder, Saki made Miyabi vice-captain, they got a Berryz special on Hello! Station this week.... maybe this marks the turning point for them?

[Purin-chama]

[quote name='rob' timestamp='1368076094' post='151302']

I think if the song was given to Berryz and they hated it, I feel like they could at least say it wasn't good enough.... or that a dance move was just a bit silly and that they could do something else.



Seriously the dance routines that Berryz do look like a starter level dance course sometimes. Check out the latest video for the "chicken wing" dance move.... surely they are capable of so much more by now?



I think Berryz found themselves in a rut of not giving a shit about anything and that C-ute making budoukan has sparked a fire, Hopefully we'll see Berryz starting to actually try harder, Saki made Miyabi vice-captain, they got a Berryz special on Hello! Station this week.... maybe this marks the turning point for them?

[/quote]

I feel once Tsunku is satified with a song, he goes with it. I like a lot of Berryz songs, but their outfits and dances are another story. There have been a few good dance songs (Jiriri Kiteru), but overall, I agree with what you said about the simple dances.



Also, for Hello! Station, last week was focused on C-ute, and the week before was MM, so it makes sense that they'd give Berryz the entire show this time. S/mileage is probably next.

[pandapanda]

On the subject of the girls being able to make some changes, I read this on Maimi's blog:



"Ah Speaking of which~



At the concert venue… Yaji came up with something that would be good merchandise for the Budoukan performance, if it’s not too late



I’ll tell our manager about it today"



Sounds like they are allowed to input on goods.

[AEUGNewtype]

[quote name='rob' timestamp='1367941917' post='151156']

MM being doomed was just a bad case of rose tinted glasses IIRC.



Berryz being doomed is an ugly.... sad... depressing fact.

[/quote]

You're a sad, delusional, horribly biased man. I don't know how you can read what you wrote and not laugh at the obviousness of your favoritism.



[quote name='showraniy' timestamp='1367946614' post='151166']

Meh, idols are doomed by nature of being idols[/quote]

This.



[quote name='Al Kusanagi' timestamp='1367953586' post='151175']

Effort and attitude, and just the general personalities of the members.



Compare things like their performances, interviews, or even blogs. C-ute puts way more effort into everything they do.



Part of Berryz charm is the differences between their members, but over half the group just give so few fucks that they are incapable of putting out the energy and effort C-ute does. It's good that they realize they're stagnant and just cruising along and want to change, but I just don't see them having the capacity to compete with the new supercharged C-ute.

[/quote]

This entire post is also blatant favoritism speaking, but not as bad as rob. I find C-ute to be some of the most boring, predictable personalities at this point (even though I still like Maimi) and all of their performances and extra-promotional activities to be equally boring. I'd much rather see groups that do something different, which Berryz has always fairly traditionally done. I'd also MUCH rather see a group having a DGAF attitude than a typical goddamn idol attitude, but I guess some fans just like relishing in that fantasy as much as possible and anything that even slightly breaks that illusion is a horrible travesty.



[quote name='TnB' timestamp='1367955137' post='151177']

none of this stuff is within the control of the C-ute members or Berryz members themselves (aside from arguably Momoko, depending on how much that persona is pushed by the agency vs herself). They don't get to pick their songs, PVs, promo events, etc. All of this would fall under "C-ute is better managed" rather than "C-ute members just work harder."



Hmm, I think "personalities" is pretty subjective and I think all that is kind of vague

[/quote]

You basically said everything I was going to say, but said it more nicely :P



[quote name='Farrah' timestamp='1367973495' post='151192']

we all need to realize that idol groups are really only worth as much as their agency puts into them. Any extra work on the part of the Berryz girls will be useless if UFP doesn't try to, you know, Advertise them to someone beyond their limited wota fanbase.

[/quote]

Sing it, girl.



[quote name='bowbowluvsyossie' timestamp='1367976992' post='151199']

Their new outfits look like the one AKB had for Flying Get.

[/quote]

I didn't think of that at first, but the kind of "modernized China" look is definitely present, but the outfits are pretty.



[quote name='Petit Hulk' timestamp='1367984117' post='151213']

Their sales aren't that bad. I looked them up and they're doing better than Faires, Passpo, ect. Idoling sells more than them though.

[/quote]

Yeah, that negative mentality is a little misleading at this point, for people who talk about sales as an indicator. So many H!P fans talk about how Berryz sales are terrible but its because they're comparing them to MM and C-ute, who are milking fans dry with multiple versions and having lots of extra promotions and stuff, but Berryz is still doing pretty well compared to most groups outside of AKB/Idoling/MomoClo. MM and C-ute elitist fans are like rabid dogs and like to shit on other groups at any opportunity like its a vicious competition (a mentality I find commonly in the H!P fandom.)



[quote name='TnB' timestamp='1368021613' post='151232']

Because that's how it works in the idol industry in general. It's pretty well known that idol agencies run the show. Every time an idol gets to have input we hear about it, because it's such a big deal. Of course we can't be certain of exact detail, but it's pretty clear that they don't make any major decisions from the way they talk about hearing the songs for the first time and learning the choreography and such. Take, for example, the dreaded Pyoco Pyoco. Remember Risa and Sayu and Reina talking about how surprised they were when they saw the costumes? Remember Risa's thinly veiled disgust? Those are not the reactions of people who had a choice in the selection process. Have you noticed how Sayu constantly talks about not wanting to perform old songs anymore, yet we keep seeing Love Machine pop up? They might get a few concessions here and there, or some fun projects like the Sayu-produced mini-photobook and Maimi's upcoming self-designed photobook, but it's pretty clear that H!P girls aren't getting to say things like "Ok this song is terrible and we aren't going to do it."

[/quote]

QFT.

[rob]

So MM being doomed and then coming back to sell over 100k and get two number one singles in a row is me being delusional?? I said they weren't doomed and they aren't, people were saying after seishun collection that the group would end soon but yes... clearly I'm delusional! <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... umbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



Berryz ARE doomed unless they pick up their game, fuck the management or the songs, THE PERFORMANCES themselves are lackluster, the girls seem bored and disinterested. Not that I blame them at all. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... >/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



Having said that, Berryz still outsell quite a lot of the other idol groups/similar sales numbers.

What I mean by doomed is that they just seem to be waiting for the group to end and until then are just on automatic (AKA give a fuck mode)

[Haru]

aeug didn't you get banned for that shit a couple months ago <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /crazy.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':crazy:' /> <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /crazy.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':crazy:' /> <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /crazy.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':crazy:' />

[tsukinobyouin]

[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' timestamp='1368484730' post='151619']

[quote name='TnB' timestamp='1367955137' post='151177']

none of this stuff is within the control of the C-ute members or Berryz members themselves (aside from arguably Momoko, depending on how much that persona is pushed by the agency vs herself). They don't get to pick their songs, PVs, promo events, etc. All of this would fall under "C-ute is better managed" rather than "C-ute members just work harder."



Hmm, I think "personalities" is pretty subjective and I think all that is kind of vague

[/quote]

You basically said everything I was going to say, but said it more nicely :P

[/quote]



I will take this on as my new job at the BBS. "Aeug Niceness Translator." <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... >/rofl.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

[rob]

I went and watched a few of the more recent videos from Berryz and to be honest, Berryz have been getting much more interesting PVs than C-ute.



I then I checked out this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berryz_Kobo_discography



According to that page Berryz' sales have been super consistent for their entire existance. Around 30k for every sale. with 5k swings either way depending on how good the song is.



Cha-Cha sing especially saw an almost DOUBLING of the sales of the previous single, Be Genki Terrible Terrible song Naseba Naru.

In fact you have to go back as far as '07/'08/'09 to see sales figures as high as they have right now. And those three years represent Berryz' golden era in terms of sales.



So maybe I'm dead fuckin wrong about everything!



(I still think the last two songs WANT and Asian Celebration weren't that great though)

[Haru]

No I agree, WANT! and Asian Celebration weren't all they were cracked up to be, but I don't think any of us can deny that "cha cha SING" as a whole was a damn great single (even with "Yurushite Nyan Taisou").



but I still think "Heroine" was one of their best singles to date.

[star]

I love their discography as a whole, except for a few songs, but If I had to pick a certain time period of songs that I love, it'd be "Dakishimete Dakishimete" all the way through "Aa, Yo ga Akeru". (My favorite from that time being either "Watashi no Mirai no Danna-sama" or Shining Power.) "Be Genki (Naseba Naru!)" is fun to listen to when I'm in a happy mood. "Cha Cha Sing" was nice, but I liked "Loving You Too Much" much more. "Want!" was amazing, but I felt it lacked something. And I liked "Asian Celebration" live better than the actual recorded version.

[showraniy]

Haha, I hate Cha Cha Sing, but Heroine is the whole reason I even glanced Berryz' direction and know a single member's name. Unlike C-ute who caught me with Jitensha though, Berryz haven't had a good single since, so they haven't succeeded in keeping my interest. I don't remember hating Aa, Yo ga Akeru though I can't remember anything about it except scary Momoko eyes. ANYWAY, I really have no opinion on the whole doomed matter, but I think Golden Chinatown is catchy?

[rob]

What are people's opinions on the characters that Sayumi, Momoko and Kanyon have used in the past?



The "I'm so cute!!" annoying character thing.



On one side it gets the groups exposure on TV



On the other I get kids in my school saying "ugh I can't stand momochi, she's sooo annoying" ---- "Isn't she in Berryz Koubou?" ---- "I hate her!"



It seems these kids don't get the idea that it's just an act <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... deways.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':sideways:' />

[tsukinobyouin]

It doesn't matter whether or not it's an act. The fact is if you turn on your TV and someone is acting in a way that really irritates you, you're going to want to change the channel. For example, if I knew absolutely nothing about Berryz Koubou and I only knew of "Momochi" because I see her on all of my favorite shows, I wouldn't be motivated to go check out Berryz Koubou. It doesn't matter that underneath the act Momoko might be a good person and not so annoying. I'm not going to buy a product based on a hidden side that of a person that I never see.



Now, if someone asked "Is Tsugunaga Momoko a hard worker?" or "Is Tsugunaga Momoko a nice person?" it would of course be unfair to answer those questions based solely off of her television persona. But that sort of question is only really relevant to people who are already pretty invested in these girls. It's the persona that either does or doesn't bring in new fans.

[rob]

Ok, so we agree that this kind of annoying persona is more of a negative than a positive?

[al kusanagi]

Sayu was smart enough to ease up on her character once people started to legitimately hate her. Momo has yet to learn that lesson.

[pandapanda]

[quote name='rob' timestamp='1368584764' post='151789']

What are people's opinions on the characters that Sayumi, Momoko and Kanyon have used in the past?



The "I'm so cute!!" annoying character thing.



On one side it gets the groups exposure on TV



On the other I get kids in my school saying "ugh I can't stand momochi, she's sooo annoying" ---- "Isn't she in Berryz Koubou?" ---- "I hate her!"



It seems these kids don't get the idea that it's just an act <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... deways.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':sideways:' />

[/quote]



Japanese girl I talked to mentioned disliking Sayu for her character act. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... ryalot.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cryalot:' />

[Anderei]

More (mostly tiny) outfit previews:

[Kahoryn]

wtf did risako do to her bangs?! D:

[pandapanda]

[quote name='Kahoryn' timestamp='1368652911' post='151903']

wtf did risako do to her bangs?! D:

[/quote]

Does Risako have purple hair in one of those pics??









Well, points for hairstyle creativity. She's had like 80 different colors/styles recently.

[Anderei]

It's that ashy purple color she's had for awhile.

[bowbow0720]

Saki has gotten so hot lately! I really think she's the Top 1 or 2 hottest in Berryz.

If only she could change her singing voice.

I mean, I like deep voices in general but nowadays she sounded like an old man growling with snot up her nose or something.