"Yorosen" to end, no more H!P TV shows?

[tsukinobyouin]

[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' post='58952' date='Feb 4 2009, 12:37 PM'][quote name='eri' post='58949' date='Feb 4 2009, 11:46 AM']A bunch of shit[/quote]

Since you seem to be the all-knowing authority on everything about Japan, their teaching methods and their language, I'm not going to argue about any of it because I don't know or care enough to do so. This has strayed way too far into an aspect of this that I don't care to research, think about, or argue about. You obviously have major predispositions and problems with things that I care nothing about. I enjoy the show and don't give a shit about some petty World War II reference, even as inaccurate or offensive as everyone claims it is, and that's really all there is left for me to say in this thread. I'm sad its going off the air.

[/quote]



Just because you don't care about something doesn't mean it isn't part of the issue. And if you don't feel like researching and learning about something (i.e. the WWII debate in Japan, if I'm reading correctly) doesn't mean someone else's point about it isn't valid. That being said, I agree that the whole Hitler thing got very blown out of proportion in the original thread about it last year. No one should feel that the show was promoting or glorifying Hitler, or anything along those lines. The problem with the episode was that the girls looked ignorant and kind of dumb. When Saki mentions the person of the week is Hitler, Maimi (and others) start scrambling to remember who he is - she even says "I think I've heard of him before." The "Hitler Ojiisan" comment furthers the image that the girls don't know much about him. There was a bad reaction from the wota on message boards, and Japanese news sites even ran articles about it. The main theme was "Young idols (and to an extent young people in general) are stupid and uneducated." An apology was even issued by the staff. So essentially, the episode was an issue, but it could have been an issue even if they had talked about a less atrocious historical figure with the same level of stupidity. If it had been about the Meiji emperor and they couldn't remember who he was, just talked about how he had a mother complex or something and made no mention of how he industrialized Japan, the issue would be the same. The episode probably just got more attention than any other example of the stupidity/lack of education of idols because of the huge debate over the teaching of the WWII period in Japan. Maybe eri went a little overboard with it, but it is a factor in the way the Japanese media/public reacted.



Aaaall of that being said, there's no reason to hold that one episode against the whole show, but it doesn't look like anyone here is doing that.

[eri]

[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' post='58956' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:42 AM']Way to be an arrogant bigot for no reason, though.[/quote]



What about my comment was bigoted? Asking for some basic racial respect and historical understanding is not the same thing as arrogance.



OK edit: I just reread this thread trying to figure out why you're so angry. This is so stupid. I saw 6 episodes of Yorusen and was not entertained. I assumed that since the format was the same, the content would be the same and always uninteresting. You say, this is incorrect and that the banter between the kids was fun. = Ok, I see your point.



I say the old H!M was fun because it was funny, etc. You think Yorusen has a different value in being somewhat educational -- not "deeply educational" but you still learn new things from it. = Ok, I see your point.



I say complaints about Tv Tokyo airing an offensive depiction of Hitler are warranted. You say it is unfair to dismiss the whole show due to that one thing. On this, I pretty much agree. However, you also imply that no one should even be upset about it because

1. Saki is not making Heil Hitler salutes

2. The comment was brief and dismissable

3. Hitler can be respected for leading his nation to [unmentionables] by the sheer force of his charisma.

On these three points, I disagree because the problem is deeper than Saki's dumb picture. To this, I get called a bigot.



[edit2] Also, concerns about WWII-ignorance in Japan are common knowledge in America as well. Every few months BBC world will run a story about how Japan refuses to acknowledge its bloody history. Ian Buruma makes a career out of writing articles about Japan's "historical immaturity." And so on.

[Ap2000]

[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' post='58888' date='Feb 4 2009, 05:57 AM'][quote name='Ap2000' post='58886' date='Feb 3 2009, 11:44 PM']To me, it was worse than H!M@, because H!M@ at least had some new/funny stuff going on at times, but Yorosen was basically just:

"teacher": So this i Hitler-san.

"retarded girl": LOLOLOLOL I'm gonna draw him like this, ROR so cute.



And that repeated and repeated and repeated.[/quote]

So....you watched one episode? Maybe one week? Good conclusion. I love how everyone gets all riled up about and tries to hold it against the show that they talked about Hitler, when, once again, the Japanese were aligned with the guy in the second World War.

[/quote]



Obviously the "conversation" was just an example.

Or you should I bring up all the dialogues ? No.



EDIT:

Yes, you clearly were missing the point. I don't care about Hitler being on Yorosen, it's just that what they did was stupid, boring and not the least bit entertaining. I could have also taken other examples, this was just the first thing that came to my mind.

[AEUGNewtype]

What about my comment was bigoted? Asking for some basic racial respect and historical understanding is not the same thing as arrogance.

Where you tried to belittle me and say that I don't use logic in my arguments, don't know how to debate, and am whining or crying about something or another. I just tried to "agree to disagree" and stop where this was going respectfully and without personal attacks and you decided to throw a few insults at me. I just don't appreciate it.



And I'm not saying I don't respect the racial and historical aspects of this, because I do, or at least as much as I can with the knowledge on the subject that I have, I just feel like a lot of the time, people who had never watched this show much at all instantly dismiss it because of this whole Hitler thing. Yeah, maybe it was wrong among the standards and set of political issues in Japan, but that shouldn't affect your opinion of a show, especially if you don't live there. People make mistakes (as well as broadcasting companies) but it shouldn't be the Scarlet Letter for an entire show or set of people.

OK edit: I just reread this thread trying to figure out why you're so angry. This is so stupid. I saw 6 episodes of Yorusen and was not entertained. I assumed that since the format was the same, the content would be the same and always uninteresting. You say, this is incorrect and that the banter between the kids was fun. = Ok, I see your point.



I say the old H!M was fun because it was funny, etc. You think Yorusen has a different value in being somewhat educational -- not "deeply educational" but you still learn new things from it. = Ok, I see your point.



I say complaints about Tv Tokyo airing an offensive depiction of Hitler are warranted. You say it is unfair to dismiss the whole show due to that one thing. On this, I pretty much agree.

I'm glad you and TnB actually clarified a lot of your thoughts here, it helped me understand where you're coming from and see that we're not disagreeing as much as we might think, but:

However, you also imply that no one should even be upset about it because

1. Saki is not making Heil Hitler salutes

2. The comment was brief and dismissable

3. Hitler can be respected for leading his nation to [unmentionables] by the sheer force of his charisma.

On these three points, I disagree because the problem is deeper than Saki's dumb picture. To this, I get called a bigot.

1. I was just using a very absurd reference as a very opposite-side-of-the-spectrum counterpoint, trying to say that its not as extreme as some people seem to be making it out to be. Not saying it wasn't potentially offensive to some people or anything, but I just feel bad how some people are trying to misconstrue something like this as the girls' fault and they should judge them and their show based on it, where it certainly isn't. There seems to be a bigger problem behind why everyone is getting miffed about it, which concerns the whole country.



2. I still kinda think it was, because I didn't even know the apparent seriousness and terrible importance of the issues behind this whole historical aspect here and therefore could only judge it by what I know. I don't so much concern myself with Japan's political issues because they honestly don't really affect me, but it made this much less offensive or controversial to me because of it.



3. "Respect" had nothing to do with my statements. Recognition, perhaps, for the historical significance of what happened, but respect had nothing to do with it.

[edit2] Also, concerns about WWII-ignorance in Japan are common knowledge in America as well. Every few months BBC world will run a story about how Japan refuses to acknowledge its bloody history. Ian Buruma makes a career out of writing articles about Japan's "historical immaturity." And so on.

That's kind of interesting, but I don't know how big of an issue it is, and it seems to be much bigger than I know. I've known it being somewhat of an issue in the past in some schools and such, but is it really a national issue? I'm viewing this whole thing only bearing my own knowledge, which, as of watching that Yorosen episode, was very below the seemingly large amount of social and political implications it has within Japan.

[neshcom]

So, who liked Yorosen and who didn't again?

[EmEl]

eri kept typing "Yorusen." AEUG kept typing "Yorosen."



So AEUG won the debate.

[AEUGNewtype]

?

[Darkolumb]

THANK. FUCKING. GOD. i'm sorry, but Haromoni@ and Yorosen were pathetic excuses for televison. i know it's nice to watch something with H!P on it. But when it basically consists of the same cutesy crap with little to actually keep you interested, there's no point. AKB's show has made up for Hello Morning as of old, when they had, you know, content.

[eri]

If that is your definition of bigoted then you're just as bigoted as I. You were disrespectful from the get go -- maybe so was I with the original "eyesore" remark, but my disliking a tv show should not be construed as some personal attack on you.



Also, I don't know how to spell it and just followed the thread title - no wonder it wasn't found in veoh.



Maybe AEUG is responding to whatever was talked about when the Hitler thing came out originally. In any case, I just don't understand the attitude of "if I don't see it personally, then no one ought to be offended and therefore you are insane/too sensitive/have issues" or "I don't know the context/ background/ history of the topic, but I won't bother to inform myself and will stand by my incompletely-informed position." Maybe it is an effect of being in school for too long and being trained to critique arguments, or perhaps it is my strong moral investment in certain things -- but statements like that just hit me as totally illogical. These positions are usually bolstered by emotions or stubborness or even laziness which hides the fact that one is making a claim based on faulty/incomplete evidence. Thus I'm not calling you stupid but I AM calling your argument illogical.



I misunderstand your interest in the educational value of the show (YorOsen isn't the History channel) and you offered a clearer explanation of what you mean by "educational." We can move forward.

Differently, you implied that anyone who WAS shaken by the Hitler episode (some seemingly enough to dislike the show entirely) just had issues. Or, that their anger was primarily targeted at a TV show or the girls and that this is wrong. Hence, I provide the social context behind the "controversy" to clarify why many people are upset and that this whole affair is not at all about one dumb tv show. And in response, I am called "arrogant" for providing relevant facts? <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' /> THUS ILLOGICAL. This is not an attack on your character. This is an observation about the argument you made in this thread.



Can we end this? I like Koharu's Happy Song?

[sadude]

A bunch of shit

whimper whine whine

Oh goodness. You're the one who tried to defend your simple interest in Yorusen by pulling out Hitler. And then when you realized you had nothing to say, you ran away crying. But I guess it is just my fault for being way into the, you know, specialized intellectual niche of finding Nazism and genocide bad things. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... hatthe.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wheely:' />



Good for you that you enjoyed the show. I didn't. So what? You are the one who tried to turn this into some grand debate. Which you just lost.

Also, I love seeing Eri out-AEUG AEUG. ohyeah.gif

Hmm. But I'm not Aeug'ing. Notice how my arguments have logic? <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... nceman.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' /> Actually, I'm glad Aeug can stick by his pov (even when it gets twisted into something stupid). This is a worlds away from "debating" with the lump of crying tofu named Ce...

Way to be an arrogant bigot for no reason, though. I already wish you hadn't started posting again.

I'm not happy with the tone both of you started taking at the bottom of the last page, regardless of who started it or who misunderstood what.

I am glad you worked it out above and moved on, but it shouldn't have gotten to that level. Also to specifically address the Ce... comment: let's keep the respect thing to past members as well. There's no need to kick anyone who isn't here/able to defend themselves.

Carry on. It was a good discussion and you both made good and interesting points, thank you for that.

eri kept typing "Yorusen." AEUG kept typing "Yorosen."



So AEUG won the debate.

<img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hahaha:' />

(The thread title said "Yorusen", yes. I noticed it and changed I before seeing your post, though. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dammit:' /> )

Eh, it's a different style of entertainment that you each enjoy. H!M vs. Yorosen is basically "look at how cute I am, watch me run around like an idiot in more physical and entertainment-based interactions (songs, skits, games, etc.)" vs, "look at how cute I am, watch me sit and talk around like an idiot in "intellectual"-based interactions (learning and discussion)". Am I missing something?

Dude, H!M had some comedy gold.

I know. I was just summing up what type of comedy both shows had, and how you each seem to like one better than the other. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wheely:' />

[AEUGNewtype]

[quote name='sadude' post='59008' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:56 PM']I am glad you worked it out above and moved on, but it shouldn't have gotten to that level. Also to specifically address the Ce... comment: let's keep the respect thing to past members as well. There's no need to kick anyone who isn't here/able to defend themselves.

Carry on. It was a good discussion and you both made good and interesting points, thank you for that.[/quote]

I think it was interesting while it lasted, too. Since it seems some people have already misunderstood this, I'd also like to clarify that when I paraphrased one of her posts earlier by changing the content to "A bunch of shit," I didn't mean it as in I was insulting and disqualifying everything she said, it was just another way of saying "A bunch of stuff" to avoid quoting a giant block of text. I agree it should be over and let the remaining misunderstandings go to rest for sake of everyone's sanity.

[alita87]

[quote name='Hana' post='58957' date='Feb 5 2009, 03:47 AM'][quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' post='58939' date='Feb 4 2009, 07:49 AM']I don't know how possible this was, i.e. what time and day the show aired[/quote]

Around 1AM, but closer to 2AM on Friday (technically Saturday).

[/quote]



Yep and keep in mind it also only aired in the Kanto area surrounding Tokyo.



Therefore the low ratings of this and all shows previous since Hello Morning stopped being aired simultaneous around the country, were only ratings from that channel for a small portion of the country as the same channel was showing something different in every other area.

[shadeedge]

Ratings are usually expressed as percentages, though, aren't they? So a smaller potential recieving audience can be compared to a larger one reasonably.

[alita87]

[quote name='shadeedge' post='59129' date='Feb 7 2009, 04:46 AM']Ratings are usually expressed as percentages, though, aren't they? So a smaller potential recieving audience can be compared to a larger one reasonably.[/quote]



Yeah but, and I'm not completely positive about this, I think the way it's done here is the 1% or whatever it is is for that whole channels airing percentage at that time, not by area. Or i can be taken both ways. So I'm no sure if the ratings for shows are only taken in the areas they air, or if for Haromoni@ it was taken in all areas, or if it was taken in all areas on whatever week the episode finally aired. But of course no one wants to wait for the eps so people outside of tokyo download them so they can see them.