Watchmen

[AEUGNewtype]

First, I think some people have been way too over-zealous about using the spoiler tags here just because other people are using them. I don't think most of the stuff I quoted really deserved to be in spoiler tags, so I removed them for ease of reading.

-So what I basically took away from this whole thing is, they are regular people (minus Dr.M) that just so happen to wear superhero outfits, but they don't have any special powers or anything like that?

They do have powers, though often not as ridiculous and over-the-top as many other superheroes, but their human emotions and problems end up causing them tons of grief and messing with their lives as well as their ability to do good for society like they used to. They're not supermutants like most of the Marvel superheroes are, they're just superhuman with no terribly adverse physical effects or anything. These problems aren't the only thing stopping them from doing so, though, because even though they don't touch much on it in the movie, its detailed more in the book, but the U.S. passed a law that prohibited superheroes from wearing masks and also made them subject to the same consequences as anyone else regarding breaking the regular law. The exceptions to this are The Comedian and Dr. Manhattan, because they're both employed by the US government for certain tasks. Comedian was put in charge of making sure the people who used to be superheroes remained "under the radar" and didn't cause any trouble, and Manhattan is very obviously employed as a government weapon against the Soviets.

Also, funny tidbit, I didn't notice this but a friend of mine did, apparently in Ozy's files is a folder titled "Boys". I don't remember any specific references to him being gay in the comic except for Rorschach mentioning he should look that up. Where did that suspicion come from?

Rorschach does very specifically mention in the comic that its a good possibility Ozy was gay in a conversation with Dan (Nite Owl,) but I don't remember further references past that, but I am reading the book right now to refresh and compare the two.

-During the film there are some other superhero's mentioned, but Rorshach only touches upon them briefly, except for the noose guy, at least I don't remember him mentioning him. He was in the original group in the purple get-up who stopped the Comedian from raping Spector. Who was he?

Those people and what happened to them are covered in much more detail in the comic, most of them either died, retired and got old, and/or passed on the torch to a new generation of heroes to replace them. Like Fina mentioned, there are some hints about what happened to some of them that disappeared mysteriously in the book in the little appendixes and stuff or through conversations that take place, but nothing too conclusive.

What exactly was Dr.M building on Mars?

It is described as his "palace" or "castle," and yes, the design is based on his obsession and fondness of watches/time while he was a human. He justifies this as a place he can be in an environment he's comfortable with and where he doesn't have to worry about other humans disturbing him, it being on Mars and all. He wanted solitude after Laurie left him and he got confronted about the cancer thing on national TV.



Also, for anyone who is deep fan of Watchmen and is also a fan of video games, I've been playing the recent downloadable Watchmen game for Xbox 360 (I think its available for PS3, too, but not sure) and though you don't play any of the events that take place in the movie or book specifically, the storyline is still canon to the series. You get to play as Rorschach or Nite Owl in what is basically a 3D beat-em-up game, but the story follows them both back when they were fighting crime, before the Keene Act went into effect and the Watchmen disbanded/quit, and you end up playing through a few events and chasing a few of the criminals that were mentioned in the books, but never shown. Its a fun game with a ton of replay value, some gorgeous graphics and good control, and though the price point is at $20.00, I think its worth it.

[Red Raccoon]

[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' post='62516' date='Mar 19 2009, 03:03 PM']They do have powers, though often not as ridiculous and over-the-top as many other superheroes, but their human emotions and problems end up causing them tons of grief and messing with their lives as well as their ability to do good for society like they used to. They're not supermutants like most of the Marvel superheroes are, they're just superhuman with no terribly adverse physical effects or anything.[/quote]

Actually, there is no mention in either the comic or the movie of any of them other than Dr Manhattan having actual super powers. I believe they are meant to be ordinary humans who rely on training (and occasionally gadgets) to fight crime. Of course, like many non-powered comicbook superheroes (Batman, for example), they come off larger than life, able to accomplish feats that seem almost super human.

[mizer_unmei]

[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' post='62506' date='Mar 19 2009, 07:00 AM']Uh, they did already make the storyline fit the medium of film. Remember that this is no independent upstart film here, this is an extremely high-budget Hollywood production and this entails everything that goes with the label. The studios were already about to not even release the film at all a few months before it came out solely because there was way too much story and not enough action/special effects. The studio made Zack Snyder re-edit the film a number of times and threatened to make him pay a huge chunk of the production costs back to the studio if he didn't do what they wanted and get it released. Film is an entirely different medium than books, especially when its going through the Hollywood tunnels, since then the studios have 90% control over what happens and their main concern is to make it make money, and therefore cater to as mass of an audience as it possibly can, and the average moviegoer nowadays wants as dumbed-down of an experience as they can possibly get, story-wise. They want to be assaulted on all 5 of their senses, but they want to use as little of their brain as possible. There's way too much going on in Watchmen's story even in the book to appeal to a truly wide audience, but since it had some big names attached to the film project, they went ahead and made it anyway, bearing the changes they wanted to make so more than a niche audience would go see it. I really don't see many inexcusable changes they made from the comic to the film.[/quote]So the fact that it was just able to get made entitles it to be passed over by people critical of the actual plot line and construction of the film? As a story it's poorly put together. And "the audience wants a dumb movie" doesn't justify it . Hell even The Dark Night had more gut wrenching plot twists, smooth flowing storyline and character develop. Something that, if Watchmen would've achieved I would've been pleased with it.

I don't need it to be like the comic. I've seen enough adaptions of books I read to know that everything can't translate to screen. But I also don't need the directors to take exactly from the comic, save for the ending, and for them to undermine the main concept of the book. If they're such big fans of the comic like they say they are, they would want to keep the complexities of it. (which aren't very complex at all in the wide world of literature.)

[Red Raccoon]

I don't need it to be like the comic. I've seen enough adaptions of books I read to know that everything can't translate to screen.

But a lot of fans who loved the original (including myself) did need it to be like the comic. We've seen enough of our favorite works raped and pillaged in the name of adaptation that it meant a lot to us that this one was so damn faithful. Unfortunately, it's kind of a "damned if you do/damned if you don't" situation. If you make lots of changes, the fans tear you apart for it. If you don't make lots of changes, the movie may not work so well for the larger audience. For financial reasons, of course, the larger audience will almost always win out over the fans. But it is refreshing to see an exception like this.

But I also don't need the directors to take exactly from the comic, save for the ending, and for them to undermine the main concept of the book.

I think you and I must have a very different understanding of what the main concept of the book was. I think the movie's ending, although altered in some of details, kept the plot and themes of the original pretty much intact.



Also, to respond to some of the spoiler stuff about the original work that I neglected before:



I think the comic made it pretty clear that the squid was of very deliberate design and for a specific purpose, not an accident. Ozy had a whole team working on an island to create the thing, including an artist and writer hired to craft the look of the creature. I believe the reason Ozy employed the author of the Black Freighter comics was he needed someone with a macbre enough imagination to create something truly bizarre and horrifying.

[AEUGNewtype]

[quote name='Red Raccoon' post='62549' date='Mar 20 2009, 02:28 PM']Actually, there is no mention in either the comic or the movie of any of them other than Dr Manhattan having actual super powers. I believe they are meant to be ordinary humans who rely on training (and occasionally gadgets) to fight crime. Of course, like many non-powered comicbook superheroes (Batman, for example), they come off larger than life, able to accomplish feats that seem almost super human.[/quote]

This is true, but in the movie, they do pull off a few feats that are definitely beyond human ability, so you can't say they're just "regular" humans based on what is seen in the film.



[quote name='mizer_unmei' post='62587' date='Mar 21 2009, 10:47 AM']Hell even The Dark Night had more gut wrenching plot twists, smooth flowing storyline and character develop. Something that, if Watchmen would've achieved I would've been pleased with it.

I don't need it to be like the comic.[/quote]

I completely disagree. Dark Knight was extremely predictable, boring, and disjointed in an uninteresting way, where Watchmen was quite the opposite for me.



[quote name='Red Raccoon' post='62702' date='Mar 23 2009, 02:20 PM'][quote name='mizer_unmei' post='62587' date='Mar 21 2009, 07:47 AM']I don't need it to be like the comic. I've seen enough adaptions of books I read to know that everything can't translate to screen.[/quote]

But a lot of fans who loved the original (including myself) did need it to be like the comic. We've seen enough of our favorite works raped and pillaged in the name of adaptation that it meant a lot to us that this one was so damn faithful. Unfortunately, it's kind of a "damned if you do/damned if you don't" situation. If you make lots of changes, the fans tear you apart for it. If you don't make lots of changes, the movie may not work so well for the larger audience. For financial reasons, of course, the larger audience will almost always win out over the fans. But it is refreshing to see an exception like this.[/quote]

Exactly.

[Red Raccoon]

[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' post='62748' date='Mar 24 2009, 03:27 AM'][quote name='Red Raccoon' post='62549' date='Mar 20 2009, 02:28 PM']Actually, there is no mention in either the comic or the movie of any of them other than Dr Manhattan having actual super powers. I believe they are meant to be ordinary humans who rely on training (and occasionally gadgets) to fight crime. Of course, like many non-powered comicbook superheroes (Batman, for example), they come off larger than life, able to accomplish feats that seem almost super human.[/quote]

This is true, but in the movie, they do pull off a few feats that are definitely beyond human ability, so you can't say they're just "regular" humans based on what is seen in the film.

[/quote]



You could probably say the same thing about James Bond, even though we are supposed to accept that he has no real super powers either. There are plenty of things that the heroes in Watchmen do that are clearly not realistic, yet still in keeping with the kinds of things that "ordinary" humans do all the time in action films. I think the genre just requires a certain suspension of disbelief.

[AEUGNewtype]

[quote name='Red Raccoon' post='62760' date='Mar 24 2009, 09:50 AM']You could probably say the same thing about James Bond, even though we are supposed to accept that he has no real super powers either. There are plenty of things that the heroes in Watchmen do that are clearly not realistic, yet still in keeping with the kinds of things that "ordinary" humans do all the time in action films. I think the genre just requires a certain suspension of disbelief.[/quote]

I can't fully agree, because when you talk about things like James Bond or other action stars, they still usually at least make the things they do look reasonably possible, and also, most of the things the crazy action stars get away with are things that seem more like an uncanny amount of luck on that person's part, where in Watchmen, they're doing clearly extraordinary physical feats. Ozymandius moving like 800 miles per hour, Rorschach jumping about 10 feet off the ground from a standing position, Comedian and his attacker in the beginning punching through solid stone and walls and throwing large humans effortlessly through the air with a good 15 foot range, etc. James Bond doesn't do any of that kind of stuff, its mostly like surviving 50 guys with machine guns shooting at him or surviving a huge explosion that he was right in the middle of. Hope this makes any sense, and I'm really not trying to argue, just trying to show how these 2 things are separated in my mind.

[fpd]

[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' post='62779' date='Mar 24 2009, 07:42 PM'][quote name='Red Raccoon' post='62760' date='Mar 24 2009, 09:50 AM']You could probably say the same thing about James Bond, even though we are supposed to accept that he has no real super powers either. There are plenty of things that the heroes in Watchmen do that are clearly not realistic, yet still in keeping with the kinds of things that "ordinary" humans do all the time in action films. I think the genre just requires a certain suspension of disbelief.[/quote]

I can't fully agree, because when you talk about things like James Bond or other action stars, they still usually at least make the things they do look reasonably possible, and also, most of the things the crazy action stars get away with are things that seem more like an uncanny amount of luck on that person's part, where in Watchmen, they're doing clearly extraordinary physical feats. Ozymandius moving like 800 miles per hour, Rorschach jumping about 10 feet off the ground from a standing position, Comedian and his attacker in the beginning punching through solid stone and walls and throwing large humans effortlessly through the air with a good 15 foot range, etc. James Bond doesn't do any of that kind of stuff, its mostly like surviving 50 guys with machine guns shooting at him or surviving a huge explosion that he was right in the middle of. Hope this makes any sense, and I'm really not trying to argue, just trying to show how these 2 things are separated in my mind.

[/quote]

Yeah that makes sense. I think it it just the genre though where in a graphic novel movie we're more wiling to accept more outrageous human actions, but in action movies we tend to keep it more "realistic" as far as the human component goes, but exaggerate things such as explosions etc.

[Red Raccoon]

[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' post='62779' date='Mar 24 2009, 03:42 PM'][quote name='Red Raccoon' post='62760' date='Mar 24 2009, 09:50 AM']You could probably say the same thing about James Bond, even though we are supposed to accept that he has no real super powers either. There are plenty of things that the heroes in Watchmen do that are clearly not realistic, yet still in keeping with the kinds of things that "ordinary" humans do all the time in action films. I think the genre just requires a certain suspension of disbelief.[/quote]

I can't fully agree, because when you talk about things like James Bond or other action stars, they still usually at least make the things they do look reasonably possible, and also, most of the things the crazy action stars get away with are things that seem more like an uncanny amount of luck on that person's part, where in Watchmen, they're doing clearly extraordinary physical feats. Ozymandius moving like 800 miles per hour, Rorschach jumping about 10 feet off the ground from a standing position, Comedian and his attacker in the beginning punching through solid stone and walls and throwing large humans effortlessly through the air with a good 15 foot range, etc. James Bond doesn't do any of that kind of stuff, its mostly like surviving 50 guys with machine guns shooting at him or surviving a huge explosion that he was right in the middle of. Hope this makes any sense, and I'm really not trying to argue, just trying to show how these 2 things are separated in my mind.

[/quote]

I don't remember Ozymadius moving at superhuman speeds, but I admit the fight scene with the Comedian was over-the-top, as the two combatants did appear to have superhuman strength. That wasn't something you saw in the comic. Watching the film, I wasn't sure what to make of it at the time. Honestly, I forgot about that part unitl just now.

[AEUGNewtype]

[quote name='Red Raccoon' post='62843' date='Mar 25 2009, 02:09 PM']I don't remember Ozymadius moving at superhuman speeds[/quote]

Not only in the scene where he hits the assassin with the velvet rope stand in his office, but in the fight at the end as well, he can zip across 20-30 foot distance in a second, as well as throw other fairly large people effortlessly through the air.

[Red Raccoon]

[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' post='62857' date='Mar 25 2009, 02:32 PM'][quote name='Red Raccoon' post='62843' date='Mar 25 2009, 02:09 PM']I don't remember Ozymadius moving at superhuman speeds[/quote]

Not only in the scene where he hits the assassin with the velvet rope stand in his office, but in the fight at the end as well, he can zip across 20-30 foot distance in a second, as well as throw other fairly large people effortlessly through the air.

[/quote]

My math was never that great, but I think that works out to about 13-20 mph. If I'm correct, that's not superhuman, or even all that special. Olympic runners can wll exceed that at top speed (I think the record is 25+ mph?), and I think even the best marathon runners average pretty close to the lower end of that range. Because those scenes were partly done in slow motion, It's hard to judge just how fast he was supposed to be moving. But my impression was that it was meant to be more in the order of a top athlete, not the Flash.



The throwing people around would have been completely believeable if the actors were built like weightlifters. Since they weren't, it tended to strain the credibility a bit. I still don't know if that means the characters were re-invented as superhuman or if they were just taking a few liberties here. I think I lean toward the later.

[al kusanagi]

Opened today in Japan and the two biggest surprises were:



1. They actually showed the big blue wang. As people said before, you don't even notice it unless you're some immature tool, but with Japan's naughty bit censor happy self I thought they would have had a version with him in the black Speedos the whole time.



2. Old people love Watchmen! Seriously, 25% of the theater audience was over 60. And this was for the late show. Isn't it past their bedtimes?



Overall, loved it. And who cares if whats-her-name couldn't act? She looked good naked. Rorschach was as kickass on film as his comic counterpart. They completely nailed him.



As mentioned before, no one in Watchmen is supposed to have any sort of power except Blue Boy. There was even the part about the "birth of the superhero" in the movie. That being said, Ozzy did seem to have superhuman strength and speed. Since they left in his genetically engineered pet lynx-thingy, it's possible that he had genetically modified himself in the movie version.