Joss Whedon & Eliza Dushku present Dollhouse

[ShinUkyo]

Since at least a couple folks mentioned they were watching the show as well, I figured we should discuss it. Now that the show's been on for about one month, there's more to talk about. My opinion, so far, is that the show is quite awesome. Sure, as Peach said, the first episode got slow at times. But we can't expect a show to be perfection right out the door. When I think back to all of my favorite shows of the past, none of them were all that stellar in their first sets of episodes. It can sometimes take up to a full season for a show to truly reach its stride. And then FOX, of course, is notorious for not letting this happen to their shows. They like to cancel shows if the ratings aren't stellar right off the bat. I wonder what would have happened if FOX were so stringent with standards in their early years. Would they have cancelled shows like The Simpsons, The X-Files, 90210, and so forth? None of those shows had very great starts, they merely showed POTENTIAL for greatness. Once the shows reached their stride, they became a thing of beauty. (And yeah, once they got on in years, they became worn out. The Simpsons takes this to a whole new level... but I digress)...



I'm glad that Dollhouse is still airing, which leads me to believe they're gonna air however many episodes were originally ordered (I'm thinking it was six, as FOX would be too kind to order thirteen episodes nowadays). After that, let's pray it doesn't go the same way as Firefly. A show which was terrific, but suffered from under-promotion and the worst possible timeslot (Fridays). I see this show getting better and better as we go along. There have been a number of moments so far... where I was genuinely shocked at the plot twists they threw in. For someone who's watched as much television as I have, it's very tough to genuinely surprise me anymore. The story is also getting deeper, while still maintaining the fun that Whedon inevitably brings. People's acting is tightening up, and their chemistry getting better. Oh yeah and, come on, Amy Acker. As if we didn't already have enough awesomeness on the show. Thoughts? Only a couple of my IRL friends are watching this show, so I'm curious to see what more people think. Unlike House, or other such shows, where there's like a trillion people IRL that I can gab about that with. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />

[peachgirldb]

I think they did actually order a full 13, though it remains to be seen if they'll actually air them all. But it's likely they would since they're not really losing anything by airing something they already have on a Friday night. It's doing well enough from an advertising standpoint.



I just watched last night's episode earlier, and while it was not as hella cool as the hunting episode, it was pretty good. I liked it a lot more than the Beyonce knockoff one. I also reallllly enjoyed the new character (Ivy?). She was really cute and actually got a pretty good amount of screentime. I hope to see more of her.



Also: does anyone else think that the girl next door with the crush on the cop could be an active?

[Sabaku Ika]

I've heard mostly negative opinions about Dollhouse on the internet so far, but I've been watching and enjoying it a lot. According to interviews, the actual ongoing Plot won't start until episode six, so I hope it doesn't get canceled before then.

[ShinUkyo]

[quote name=':Peach' post='61723' date='Mar 7 2009, 05:11 PM']I think they did actually order a full 13, though it remains to be seen if they'll actually air them all. But it's likely they would since they're not really losing anything by airing something they already have on a Friday night. It's doing well enough from an advertising standpoint. I just watched last night's episode earlier, and while it was not as hella cool as the hunting episode, it was pretty good. I liked it a lot more than the Beyonce knockoff one. I also reallllly enjoyed the new character (Ivy?). She was really cute and actually got a pretty good amount of screentime. I hope to see more of her. Also: does anyone else think that the girl next door with the crush on the cop could be an active?[/quote]

As for the Friday night thing, don't be too sure. There was a FOX show, a couple years back, called Vanished. It started off in the Tues/Weds sweetspot, after American Idol and such. But eventually, after the initial thirteen episodes aired, it got moved to Fridays. They ordered enough new episodes to conclude the plotline, although they had to write off and replace the show's main character for cost reasons. It was airing okay for a bit, but then a surprise. Before they aired the last three episodes or so, they made a last-minute decision to stop airing it altogether. I tuned in to watch the show one week, to see a short disclaimer from FOX. I'm paraphrasing, but, "Vanished fans: can't wait to see this week's new episode? You can catch the remaining episodes of the series, exclusively on FOX.com!" Trying to sell it as some cool tech-savvy idea, to have it online only. In reality, they didn't want to spend the money on airing a show that was getting zero ratings. They opted to take the show off, and replace it with reruns of one of their more-popular shows. So ugh, when the ratings get low enough, they're willing to swap it with reruns of House or Bones. Even on Friday nights, where you figure the ratings are almost inconsequential. But a ray of hope, like you said, is that Whedon brings lots of buzz. Especially since this is like his second-chance on FOX, like when Family Guy got brought back from the dead. Plus, heck, Eliza has that promo with Hulu.com (tied to this show). That alone should at least guarantee they air the episodes which were previously filmed.



I love that new doctor chick, too. She's beautiful, and also really fun and likeable. And I'm just glad she's not a replacement for Amy Acker, who I saw for a moment in the preview of next week's episode. So with both of them there, hey, good times. As for the speculation: From the moment I saw that hot neighbor chick, who lives next to the cop, I'd assumed she was an active. Placed there to throw him off the case, like they had implied earlier. I was surprised to find out, later, that the active they placed to throw off the cop was actually our Russian mafia friend! Not as big as some of the other surprises on the show so far... but still enough that I was really impressed. I know there are even bigger surprises in store, both with regards to the cop and to the Alpha/Echo stuff.

[Sabaku Ika]

My favorite unsupported theory: The cop is Alpha.

[peachgirldb]

Ooh, I like that theory, Sabaku!



I know it's not a guarantee they'll finish airing it (the show you're talking about, I remember the same sort of thing happened to Drive, that was a damn shame.), but Dollhouse is performing better in the ratings than Terminator right now, and reruns of House are no longer pulling the numbers that they used to. While they could stick in a reality show, advertisers supposedly prefer watchers of scripted shows, since the idea is that they're pulling in a more highbrow audience with more money to blow.

[Gypchan]

Rob and I are watching the show.

So far, I think Rob likes it much more than I do but, then again, I am a little slow when it comes to shows with a lot of twists and characters to get to know. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... >/sigh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />



I do agree with Peachy's theory about the girl living next door to the FBI guy is an active.

The great thing about the 3rd episode is that is opened up the question: "Just who is an active and who is not?"

I was even thinking that the bosslady of the whole Dollhouse is actually an active and there are unseen higher-ups pulling her strings as well.



So far, I am mostly attached to watching Echo's handler due to his uncertainty of the whole Dollhouse company's motives and such and the programmer guy because he reminds me of the typical, nerdy, wisecracking Whedon characters that made Whedon's other shows such gems to me (I just cannot take a completely serious show. I need some humor in the face of danger and suspense!).



I might be one of the few people who really does not like Eliza, though.

She seems fine in Echo's "wiped" state, but each time she is given a personality for an assignment, it seems awkward to me.

Maybe I am having a difficult time believing that the imprint alone makes her qualified to do the work as much as her handler or the clients who come to the Dollhouse with doubts about the whole operation. Or maybe it is an acting issue. I am not sure.

[al kusanagi]

Not a terrible show, but far less "Whedon" than anything else he's done. I want snappy dialogue, not blank slate girl.



PS. More sideboob, plz.

[story]

The show is ok.



The programmer guy is creepy and annoying.



"Did I fall asleep?" is beginning to get on my nerves.



Sierra looks a bit weird - kinda like an Afghan hound.

[Liana]

I love Joss Whedon. I feel like I shouldn't, that my biggest creative influence should maybe NOT be the guy who made his name with a ditzy girl killing vampires. But he goes so much deeper and . . . well anyway no one cares about my undying love for Joss. The point is, I will irrationally love any and everything he does, unconditionally.



However, Dollhouse has some things it needs to work on. Like . . . Eliza Dushku. You know, Joss has always had this amazing talent of casting just the right people in just the right roles. Some of his actors were brilliant, but some of them were just the right person for that character and can't do much else. Eliza Dushku was that for Faith. Eliza has maybe, oh, two characters in her? Yet she's in this role where she needs to snap into a completely different person episode to episode and so far she's just been portraying Echo-as-an-active and then some minor variations on A Strong Woman. Her in the lead is probably my biggest gripe about the series, though I think everyone can appreciate her running around in a tanktop.



Otherwise I'm not passing to harsh judgement on it yet, especially knowing how Joss works. He always takes his time, plays with his characters a bit before jumping into the real plot. I am so excited for where this series is going!

[Ap2000]

Never heard of it before, but sounds rather interesting after what I read on wikipedia.



Maybe it's just me, but it seems like every scifi/mystery series lately has a shadowy organization... LOST with the DHARMA Initiative, Fringe's Massive Dynamic, that torchwood thing (which I haven't seen and don't intend to) and I'm sure there are plenty more.

[Pflaume]

Random aside: I'm not sure that Torchwood completely counts as "shadowy." Iffy on the morals but overall pretty well-meaning, I guess? I don't know, though... I don't watch Torchwood despite loving me some Dr. Who, and I'm basing it mostly on the Torchwood of Dr. Who. Actually, does anyone watch it? Is Torchwood Torchwood more evil than Dr. Who Torchwood? Gyp?



Eliza Dushku is driving my crazy in this. Watching her is anything but enjoyable. I love the concept, like how the show is made overall, and what I've seen managed to pick up speed after the excruciatingly slow start of the first episode... Eliza, though. I'm sorry. I feel so bad saying her acting is awful, but it's awful. Sometimes I just want to smack her right in the jaw. She was never this grating to me in other appearances, either, so it's a little confusing.



Any way to switch her out before the next episode airs? <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /pouty.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dammit:' />

[ShinUkyo]

[quote name='Story' post='61782' date='Mar 8 2009, 11:03 AM']Sierra looks a bit weird - kinda like an Afghan hound.[/quote]

She's also far too skinny. Then again, I'm assuming they cast her (in part) to draw in viewers who go for that wafer-thin supermodel look. But that's superficial stuff, anyhow. I still like her character, so far. At least from what little we know of it. And the actress who plays her does a pretty good job, too. I'm looking forward to them developing her story a little more, as I'm kinda curious.



[quote name='Liana' post='61815' date='Mar 8 2009, 04:35 PM']However, Dollhouse has some things it needs to work on. Like . . . Eliza Dushku. You know, Joss has always had this amazing talent of casting just the right people in just the right roles. Some of his actors were brilliant, but some of them were just the right person for that character and can't do much else. Eliza Dushku was that for Faith. Eliza has maybe, oh, two characters in her? Yet she's in this role where she needs to snap into a completely different person episode to episode and so far she's just been portraying Echo-as-an-active and then some minor variations on A Strong Woman. Her in the lead is probably my biggest gripe about the series, though I think everyone can appreciate her running around in a tanktop. Otherwise I'm not passing to harsh judgement on it yet, especially knowing how Joss works. He always takes his time, plays with his characters a bit before jumping into the real plot. I am so excited for where this series is going![/quote]

Tanktops don't hurt, this is true. But it still can't beat that opening dance club scene, from episode one. I'm definitely a thigh person, and sweet lordie... I didn't realize she had gams like those! Of course a lot of her appeal is the sexiness, this is no revelation. She's definitely not an Emmy-caliber actress by any means. But in the past, she has always had to warm up to the role before her acting became more natural/relaxed. This happened with her character in Buffy, and it happened even moreso with her character in Tru Calling. Comparing the early stuff to some of the later episodes of that show, it can be like night and day. And this role, certainly being the most complex she's ever been asked to play, is gonna take some time. Plus, above all, we're on the same wavelength here. We have faith in Joss, and know he likes to experiment in order to find his stride. Much like any good producer/director should.



[quote name='Pflaume' post='61819' date='Mar 8 2009, 05:15 PM']Eliza Dushku is driving my crazy in this. Watching her is anything but enjoyable. I love the concept, like how the show is made overall, and what I've seen managed to pick up speed after the excruciatingly slow start of the first episode... Eliza, though. I'm sorry. I feel so bad saying her acting is awful, but it's awful. Sometimes I just want to smack her right in the jaw. She was never this grating to me in other appearances, either, so it's a little confusing. Any way to switch her out before the next episode airs? <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /pouty.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dammit:' />[/quote]

Hey now, let's not go that far. A lot of what I said, in response to Liana above, explains the issue you were having. And especially as to, "Why has she not seemed this grating before?" I think with time, she'll grow more comfortable with the role. She hasn't been on a television show in multiple years, the longest hiatus she's had since prior to Buffy. And this role is definitely the toughest and most-complex that she has been asked to play, by far. That being said, it's gonna take much longer than usual. I think with time, like she always does, she will grow into the character... and instill some of herself into it. Rather than just defaulting to traits from her prior roles.

[Pflaume]

I really don't know why I am reacting to her so strongly, actually, and I feel kind of bad calling anyone's acting awful. All your points are fair, but I still have this overwhelming discomfort watching her. Maybe it will get better over time... like liking Sayumi's TV appearances. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dammit:' />

[Gypchan]

[quote name='Pflaume' post='61819' date='Mar 8 2009, 06:15 PM']Random aside: I'm not sure that Torchwood completely counts as "shadowy." Iffy on the morals but overall pretty well-meaning, I guess? I don't know, though... I don't watch Torchwood despite loving me some Dr. Who, and I'm basing it mostly on the Torchwood of Dr. Who. Actually, does anyone watch it? Is Torchwood Torchwood more evil than Dr. Who Torchwood? Gyp?[/quote]

Torchwood IS the shadowy organization. The amusing thing about it is that its motives can be seen as good or evil depending on whose point of view you are looking at it from. Regular Earthlings? Aliens? The Doctor himself? People in the organization? There is a lot of gray area in there.

Please see the Doctor Who episode, Tooth and Claw to understand why it was created.

Torchwood is mainly the organization used as the primary defense against any alien threat to the planet Earth. It slightly reminds me of the X-Files, but due to too much crap seen by the common public on the show, it's regularly known by everyone that they exist. People don't know individuals who work for the organization though. It's more like a lady could see a weird creature speeding a vehicle through a red light and mutter, "Bloody Torchwood," and not bat an eyelash about it.

Oddly, The Doctor himself is more of a mystery to the human race/Earthlings than Torchwood is in that world. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... >/rofl.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dammit:' />



But back to Dollhouse...

Joss DOES like to wait a bit before diving into the real plot. So are we waiting for another episode or two until we see it? What is the average wait?

[Pflaume]

Yep, that was what I was wondering. I've seen that episode (actually every episode of the new series, now... YOUR FAULT, GYP <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... ek3run.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dammit:' />) and it still strikes me like they portray Torchwood, on Dr. Who at least, as people who want to protect earth but do it with really iffy methods. As far as the origin, though, it seems implied the company strayed from that mindset a bit? At best, they're pompous and entitled. But yeah, shadowy implies hidden, too, which it's definitely not.



I was wondering if they showed lots more corruption in the actual Torchwood series, since they are the protagonists there.



Part of what I like about Dr. Who is that nobody's really completely the good guy. Even the Doctor is painted as bringing death and destruction everywhere he goes. That is way too much off-topicness for this thread, sorry!

[Liana]

Gyp - lol forever! The first season of Angel didn't pick up until halfway through everything, and even then it was sort of just to set up it's second season. Buffy season 1 I can't talk about because I never watch any of it, it's horrible. Firefly was canceled before it got ANYWHERE, but somewhere around episode 8 or so you started to see major seeds to an overall arch. Joss is already planting seeds in Dollhouse! I give it two or three more episodes before we really get rolling.



ShinUkyo - This is very, very true. I'd never actually thought of Eliza as a weaker actor before this, really. It's just that she shouldn't be leading the whole show. She could be the Sierra character or something and I'd be thrilled, but as the center of it all? She isn't pulling her weight, yet. But as you said, she could get better. Plus, the Echo Goes On An Adventure storytelling style cannot last forever and eventually it'll be about Echo herself and Eliza will have only one character to form and play, instead of trying to be a new person week to week. It's really just that she's not snapping into new personalities well enough for me. Honestly, I want her and Amy Acker to switch. Amy Acker as crazy cavern Fred is different from normal Fred who is very different from Illyria who is different from Dr. Scarface (I like that nickname too much to learn her real one <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... iggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dammit:' />). THAT is the kind of thing I want to see in someone playing an Active.



Anyway, the next episode looks like it's written by Tim Minear. I'm enough of a Joss fan to know a bit about his posse and who I like and who I don't and I have multiple orgasms over Tim Minear's cinematography skills, but when he tries to write I just want to cry myself to sleep. Sometimes, however, he's busted out something good so I have some hope, but not much. It'll be another Stage Fright. I thought that episode was just absolute implausible shit, and I'm already watching a sci-fi series! It doesn't GET more implausible!

[ShinUkyo]

Episode five was alright, although nothing spectacular. I was stunned that there were not many shocking plot twists this time, at least not until the very end. Like when the first person approaches her in the gas mask, you know you thought it was gonna be her handler (who had just swiped one of those outfits, from an agent outside). And then later on, in the closing bit, when she eerily seems to remember this whole deception. And from the looks of the preview, episode six will indeed be the one where the real plot kicks in. I'm wondering if she's gonna have an Alpha-type reaction, or if maybe she's always been retaining more of these experiences than she's been letting on. Or maybe we have no idea what's coming, and the result will totally blow our minds. I'm hoping for a little bit of the latter.

[peachgirldb]

Yeah, the whole "Ballard and Echo will finally meet!" thing isn't really getting me psyched up, but the fact that everyone production-side is billing it as the episode that will transform the series *has* to be a good thing. I also heard that it will sort of reintroduce the show's concept as well, giving new viewers a chance to catch up. Fingers crossed.



Edit: Also, the ratings actually went up this week! (Terminator as well.) Hope it keeps going.

[Liana]

I so didn't like this episode. It was everything I expected from Tim Minear. Most of the things Minear writes just come off feeling "I'm so deep, yes I am!" to me and with all the undertones and religious content in this episode, I got that feeling again. Nevermind certain things were just . . . skipped on over, like when Echo got her sight back and everyone was like "Well, that's pretty sweet! So anyway." Yes, that moment was an act break and it was far from the climax of the show so if you spent TOO much time on it it'd be dumb, but I felt it still could have been paid more attention to and given more time without being overboard. A good writer could have handled it :x I had all these things I was going to go through and point out about why I hate Minear's writing, but I'm already rambling too much haha. The point is, ew. But it wasn't his worst attempt and wasn't the worst Dollhouse episode- Stage Fright has it's hold on that TIGHT!



. . . Good GOD that was negative. I only nitpick like this when I REALLY love something, I swear to god. Otherwise I'm just like "Well that was cute!" and don't expect much. You know, like H!P! Sorry for being That Person up in here :x

[peachgirldb]

You're gonna be REAL excited if you hated Stage Fright, then, Liana, 'cause Jed and his lovergirl are writing the season finale.

[Liana]

[quote name=':Peach' post='62358' date='Mar 15 2009, 08:09 PM']You're gonna be REAL excited if you hated Stage Fright, then, Liana, 'cause Jed and his lovergirl are writing the season finale.[/quote]

. . .



LOL PEACH I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE you silly girl! That was a joke! Right? Riiight?



God what is all this Jed business out of nowhere! Anger! Rage! They worked on Dr. Horrible too, which is my least favorite Joss project . . . ever. Gaaay.

[peachgirldb]

[quote name='Liana' post='62368' date='Mar 16 2009, 03:06 AM'][quote name=':Peach' post='62358' date='Mar 15 2009, 08:09 PM']You're gonna be REAL excited if you hated Stage Fright, then, Liana, 'cause Jed and his lovergirl are writing the season finale.[/quote]

. . .



LOL PEACH I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE you silly girl! That was a joke! Right? Riiight?



God what is all this Jed business out of nowhere! Anger! Rage! They worked on Dr. Horrible too, which is my least favorite Joss project . . . ever. Gaaay.

[/quote]

They have another episode coming up as well with Jane Espenson xD (Although I'm glad she gets an ep. on her own too without them to ruin it...)



Iunno, I didn't like Stage Fright that much, but it was nowhere near as bad as like... Beer Bad. Or Doublemeat Palace. So. As long as it's not that. We're good.

[Pflaume]

Aaaahahaha, Doublemeat Palace. First, last, only episode of Buffy I watched in its entirety.

[peachgirldb]

[quote name='Pflaume' post='62375' date='Mar 16 2009, 09:11 AM']Aaaahahaha, Doublemeat Palace. First, last, only episode of Buffy I watched in its entirety. [/quote]

I'm so sorry. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... ryalot.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />

[Pflaume]

This might explain my never understanding why anyone would like that show. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... ek3run.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />

[Liana]

Oh god, sweetie. I'm so sorry. Nobody should be introduced to Buffy after season 6. Season 6 (and 7, though that's debatable) is like the minor fine print on a really awesome contract. This is true of most television shows in their later seasons, really.



But yeah, Stage Fright was not the biggest mistake on Joss's canvas. That would actually be the episode Billy from Angel. So much potential but so much embarrassing, juvenile preaching. But I'm excited for a Jane episode! I loooove Jane, even if she's had her mistakes. I try to judge on tone, flow, and general make-sense-ness (I've taken a year's worth of screenwritin' I know me some termz <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... iggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />) rather than concept because the concept is rarely the writer's own idea in TV land! Sort of. Ish. Depending. Anyway she's going to have a field day with Topher. That's his name, right? God I should know these things by now XD Wash 2.0! You know.



Man I love how you can't have a discussion about a Joss show without digressing into Joss world as a whole. On a BBS that has nothing to do with Joss or television at that! Not a lot of other people inspire this, this paying attention to the creative minds behind the flashy TV screen. End random fangirlism.

[peachgirldb]

Yeah, I love Jane too. She's written both good and bad, but I really like reading her blog every now and then... she's really thoughtful and bubbly and just all around good people.

[ShinUkyo]

[quote name='Pflaume' post='62384' date='Mar 16 2009, 03:24 PM']This might explain my never understanding why anyone would like that show. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... ek3run.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':eekrun:' />[/quote]

Definitely explains things. One thing I've learned, all too well, is to never judge a show based on just one episode. Even two episodes, sometimes, is pushing it. And no, that doesn't mean someone should hafta watch an entire season, or something absurd... just to be able to judge a show. But definitely don't hit the other end of the spectrum, either... and end up with too little info. For a recent example, from my own life: Steve (AEUG) would always say how he hates the show House, even though he's seen maybe one or two episodes at max (and not even in full, from what he said). Plus with how over-hyped the show has always been, that just added to his negative perception. And it surprised me, too, because the show has that smart, cynical, unique sort of writing that I know he'd love if he could just see past the fog.

[peachgirldb]

KNEW IT. (That the neighbor was an active)



Also I accidentally spoiled myself on who's playing Alpha and HOO BOY that's gonna be a mindfuck.



Edit: HOLY SHIT THE PREVIEW FOR NEXT WEEK MR. DOMINIC AHAHAHA