What draws you to H!P?

[Shoujo Q]

As stated in the MK Break-up thread by Kaworu.

I really don't understand how there is so many people in this board that everytime someone mentions an old H!P act like Puccimoni, Minimoni, Tanpopo even, MKB and maaany others (shuffle units, past concerts, etc) are completely clueless about it and still are into H!P. I don't mean in in a bad way, and maybe this should be a thread alone, but my question is: what exactly attracts people to H!P nowadays?



There's no fun songs, there's no girls running around in the stage with gigantic and honest smiles anymore, there's no silly dances, there's no TV shows that showcase the girls' personality, there's no huuuuge concert in amazing arenas with millions of people dancing and cheering the girls...

I don't know, but for me H!P has become... boring. And it really makes me wonder what makes some people become fans of the current H!P. I personally got into them in 2004, a month before Tsuji/Kago graduated from MM, but what REALLY got me into H!P were all the fantastic acts that existed even before that. Of course we still had haro moni then, and a lot of footage from TV shows, and the concerts and specially the songs were SO awesomely FUN, but now... I just don't see the appeal anymore. In all honesty all the recent singles are pop songs sang by a bunch of girls with not so great voices, back in the day it was all about dancing and smiling and running in the stage and making funny faces and entertaining a complete country that KNEW that they weren't singers in the first place. Now not even C-ute or Berryz or any of the smaller acts are about that (maybe Buono but that's debatable). Their songs are "mature" and their choreographies are so defined that they fail at being technically awesome because let's be honest: they have never been, and they fail at being purely entertaining because the girls don't seem to have fun anymore...



How can anyone be a fan of H!P and not know about MKB? How can anyone be a fan of H!P and not seen MKB performing this is unmei or koibito ni narou? I mean, it's not bad that that happens, it's just that I don't understand what "modern" fans find interesting about H!P anymore.

I thought this deserved its own thread for deep meaningful conversation so it doesn't side track the Melon mourning thread.



And here's my not so awesome version of the same question.

Hello!Project has been around for over ten years. It's been through more changes then Joan Rivers had surgeries. A fan of Hello! Project in the early 2000's isn't the same type of fan that appears today. So what drew you to Hello!Project now, then, today?



What still draws you to Hello!Project and if you're no longer a fan, what drew you away?







Here's my answer as it pertains to me and my thoughts.



For me, it's the Tsunku factor that keeps me tethered to the groups. I think the man is a weird freaky mad genius. He's lost his edge over the years but he still cranks out stuff I want to listen too. Of course I don't like everything he's touched, in fact I wish he wouldn't touch some things, like Buono and ballads. I don't like Tsunku ballads at all.



A few of the girls keep me interested in that I keep tuning in to see if they'll finally get a line because it appears I have this like of the underdog girls like Chisato, Maasa, JunJun, and Aika.



Of course if Tsunku were to restructure everything tomorrow and put all new girls into the groups, I'd still listen because it's Tsunku and he's got an awesome gift. (I'm also a big fan of Nice Girl Project) <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... iggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dance:' /> Sure I'd be sad but I'd get over myself because to me it's all about the music and the girls come second. That's not true for everyone of course but that's why this thread was made in the first place right? <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':drunk:' />



Here's a little background info on my thinking. I became a fan of Morning Musume overall but I was exposed to the 2002 shuffle groups first back in the day and the songs were okay, I especially loved Happy7's song. But I fell in love with Koko Ni Iruzee when I first heard it and I experimented like some teenager who found the keys to the liquor cabinet, with Aya Matsuura, Minimoni, and Tanpopo and a little Melon Kinebi as a chaser and I was hooked onto the Hello!Project bandwagon and I've been riding it through all its up and downs with the music. Concerts, television stuff, that came second. If there's one thing I hate, it's sitting through a H!P act's Concert DVD. I find them to be very boring to watch. Going to a concert is one thing, watching a concert on a dvd is not fun for me! So that basically shows the type of fan I am. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... iggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cryalot:' /> Also since I've never had a good computer I've never really go into any of the H!P based shows. I've seen a few Hello Mornings, and I liked the skits the best but it's not what drew me to the groups.



Once the H!P Kids came on board I found I liked their spunk and at first Berryz Koubou made me weep and wonder what the hell Tsunku did! But once my ears developed like your nose to a foul odder, I learned to appreciate the music Tsunku was giving me. Then W came along and I was happy because it had my favorite member Kago in it and then she went and killed the group and I was left with Morning Musume till C-ute came along and I was happy for awhile till the music wasn't so good anymore and the group became all about Airi and Maimi and they lost members and the vocals changed everything but at least the singing was better and I wish to this day that Berryz Songs were given to C-ute and all would be right in the world for me, but that's just my taste. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... iggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':crying:' />



Buono is a big driving force for me today with Morning Musume still coming in second and I love the fact that Tsunku went and shuffled up the girls and brought back the old sub-groups. I miss the shuffles because it was a way for girls to become spotlights when they were normally supports. Because I can't speak the language or even understand it, Japanese music has always been very tonal for me. I see the girls voices as an instrument and all their voices are different so it's always interesting to see how they are used in songs.



For the case of Mano Erina, she can't sing, she never has been able to sing and I doubt she ever will and since Tsunku hasn't been anywhere near her music she never really got on my radar so I ignored her mostly. That is till I saw her perform and she has an infectious smile that reminded me of Maki Goto. But other then that I don't listen to her much.



I'm very interested to see what S/mileage will bring to 2010 because I have high hopes for them. They sing well and have been getting great songs. But they better not turn into C-ute 2.0 because I'll be very unhappy. :<



I don't think I'll be driven away as long and Tsunku continues to deliver with or without help but those Korean girl groups are really starting to overpower me with their music so only time will tell if my love for Tsunku will be replaced with a big giant Korean flag of awesome!

[Ap2000]

Their (read: MM) appearances on shows and in television in general.



At least, that's what it was used to be, when they still had (good) appearances on TV.



Sure, I really like RR21 and most of the songs on their 10 year anniversary Singles-Collection, but that's not the biggest interest point of MM.

(See how I don't say "H!P", but MM ? 90% of my interest in H!P is MM)



I could fit all the songs of H!P that I really love and listen to frequently on two CDs probably.

My library of videos though, I have a 500GB external hdd and it's full. Just TV appearances and some DVD stuff, I don't download music videos.



Yeah... for me life as a guy that is interested in H!P has been hard lately...

[tsukinobyouin]

What I REALLY would like to know is, what makes people who find current H!P terrible and boring stick around. I'm so tired of the same circular "I miss the glory days of H!P" discussions that come up over and over again at this board. And lately, we've been getting a lot of "these girls are sooo untalented and really the music is terrible" discussions. I can understand why people have these opinions and they're certainly entitled to them, but I can't figure out why you'd constantly subject yourself to stuff you...don't like. I think current Kpop pales in comparison to what I consider the "glory days" but I don't go into all the Kpop threads to let everyone know. I know that I don't like rap music, so I don't waste any of my time on the internet finding new rap songs to bitch about. Why not...spend your time listening to music/following groups you actually like?







Personally, though I've been into H!P (on and off) since the golden era, there's a lot about current H!P that I like. I don't watch much of what the girls do on TV, but really there isn't that much to watch. I don't really feel like I could praise or complain about the overall personality of current MM because they just don't have the chance to carry a full show and demonstrate whether they'd sink or swim. The last time I watched some MM behind the scenes thing (pre-Koharu grad), the only person who couldn't come up with anything interesting to say or play off the other girls was Takahashi, but I do like her as a performer.



Lately for me, it's a lot about the music. I have really eclectic tastes in music, so maybe that's why I'm equally happy with old quirky stuff like Koi no Dance Site, new mature stuff like Nanchatte Renai, super cutesy happy Mini Moni songs, elegant ballads like Ayaya's Omoi Afurete, super pretty and talented vocals from Maeda Yuki, and weak vocals but catchy/cute/fun songs like Balalaika. I don't feel let down by the current direction MM has gone, or by the lack of certain soloists, because almost all of the different styles H!P has tried have appealed to me in one way or another.

[al kusanagi]

I seriously do feel sorry for anyone who discovered HP in the post 2005. And with MKB gone, there is absolutely nothing musically worthwhile about HP now. The only thing really keeping me interested is my love of Sayumi and Takahashi, moreso their TV and radio appearances than anything they've done musically. I never got onboard with Berryz and subsequent groups because, quite frankly, that was when HP died to the masses. With MM, at least you could kind of understand middle aged dudes jumping around to them because they'd been around for a while and had older members, but when it was 40-year olds flocking to a bunch of 10 year olds, that when the "normal" fans started going "WTF?" and HP became pretty much entirely wota driven. Then, after seeing that MM pretty much sold 30,000 CDs every time to the same fans, it seemed the production company just gave up completely and said "Their dumbasses will buy it regardless, so why try?"



I've checked out Smileage and, while they are adorable, there's far better music out there in Japan, so citing the members as the main reason for liking them would just be goddamned creepy for a guy now in his 30s. While I've stopped following them much musically, I am glad that MM has been given a chance to grow up a bit without any recent auditions and adding more 12 year olds to the group. That probably won't last long, though...



MKB and Country Musume were always my two favorite HP groups, followed by MM. When CM broke up, at least I had MKB left, with a bit of MM. When Yossie left MM, that's pretty much when I decided to "graduate" as well, since Yossie was the last member left who was in the group when I truly became a fan of them (I know of them back in late 98- early 99, but they were boring as shit then, other than OG Tanpopo). I still have some loyalty since I've always considered Takahashi to be "my Musume," since she was put in the group the day after my birthday and I immediately picked her as a winner the second I saw her on the 5th gen audition TV special, then there's the fact that Sayumi's awesome, but neither of those have anything to do with music. Now with MKB gone, I'll probably give various PVs a watch when they come out, and I'll still check out TV appearances, but I don't think I'll be much of a fan.



PS. Erina Mano gets a pass because she is freaking adorable and does awesome things like Hanbun Esper and Mano Spy, which are as cheesy and awesome as Cyborg Shibata and Captain Shibata. Did I mention she's freaking adorable? Mano VS Ayaya in her prime would have been one hell of an idol death match.



PPS. I could write a goddamned thesis, but I'm hungry.

[EmEl]

Trike's response in the original thread pretty much said exactly what I wanted to say. There is no objective reality beyond sales numbers that says that the previous H!P members and material were better, and we all know that sales numbers are not indicators of quality. If all you care about is idols being dumb on variety shows, then an unpopular ratings draw will not help you.



These things are opinions and many non-objective things influence opinions. Have you never disliked a type of music or band, but then later in life came back to it and discovered a love for it? The band didn't change, but the listener's frame of reference did.



Everyone who got into H!P in the "golden age" who disparage the current generation of idols are just clouded with nostalgia. The overall quality has essentially been the same, with minor ups and downs along the way. There are excellent performers now, there were excellent performers then. There were bad performers then, there are bad performers now. The composition and arranging is still high quality. People just love what they're used to.



There may not be the TV shows to showcase the personalities, but there are still girls running around the stage with goofy smiles. Who cares how large the arena is? I don't care about the other fans. The girls are still energetic regardless. There are still silly dances. I'm sorry the poor idols that people loved in 2002 grew up so fast, but they're not coming back.

[Gerald]

[quote name='TnB' post='75986' date='Feb 20 2010, 09:59 PM']What I REALLY would like to know is, what makes people who find current H!P terrible and boring stick around. I'm so tired of the same circular "I miss the glory days of H!P" discussions that come up over and over again at this board. And lately, we've been getting a lot of "these girls are sooo untalented and really the music is terrible" discussions. I can understand why people have these opinions and they're certainly entitled to them, but I can't figure out why you'd constantly subject yourself to stuff you...don't like. I think current Kpop pales in comparison to what I consider the "glory days" but I don't go into all the Kpop threads to let everyone know. I know that I don't like rap music, so I don't waste any of my time on the internet finding new rap songs to bitch about. Why not...spend your time listening to music/following groups you actually like?[/quote]

This.



I discovered MM in a fairly round about way, a friend of mine is a film freak and he got me (slightly) interested in anime. Whilst looking about to find more about it I saw a picture on a web site of Nacchi (obviously I thought she was a bit of a babe), it said she was a former member of MM and in my ignorance I thought an English/Japanese name for a group was unusual and it stuck in my mind. Probably a year or so later, about 5 years ago, I found a copy of Hello! Morning on a newsgroup remembered the MM name and downloaded it.



I instantly fell in love with their wackiness (God I hate that word), enthusiasm and vitality even though I speak no Japanese and I saw several more H!M episodes before I heard them sing. I immediately liked the music even though it's the exact opposite of what I normally listen to but I've always had a weakness for catchy pop. After a while I started to buy concert DVDs and discovered MKB, Ayaya, Nacchi, the original Tanpopo and Sakura Gumi. I've never been able to get enthusiastic about any of the teenage groups but that's probably my loss.



I still love MM, Ayaya and Nacchi and until yesterday MKB <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... mumble.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dance:' /> and I will probably stick with them for the foreseeable future although Ai, Risa and Eri graduating would probably kill MM for me. Em-El is absolutely right the quality is pretty much the same, KonKon = Sayumi etc. and it's no point in looking back and moaning about now, just enjoy them for what they are now.



I do wonder though how many new fans they pick up these days without a weekly TV presence, the competition from other girl-groups and the "general familiarity breeds contempt" scenario but maybe a few new ones arrive as a few old fans drift away.

[Farrah]

For me, it's pretty much force of habit. I've listened to them since I was kid and it's so easy to just pop in twice a month to listen to whatever new single is floating about. Plus, for me, bitching about it is half the the fun. I rather a single that makes me RAAAAAGE than one that gives me zero feelings at all. I also like to tune in to see if Linlin, Chisato or Eri ever get a lead in a single, haha.

[Shoujo Q]

The difference between Morning Musume and Berryz/C-ute/S/mileage is that Morning Musume were auditioned and thrown into the arena to dance, sing, act goofy at the start where as the other three groups were trained and molded into what they are today by being back up dancers, used in videos and whatever else behind the scenes they do/did making a big difference in the types of fans they have.



I started as a fan in the first group but find myself now in the second camp of fans.



I kind of can't help it with Berryz and C-ute since I was around when they were just little H!P Kids, I feel kind of like a mother hen watching them grow and change and develop as performers and singers and dancers.



Just a point I wanted to make. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... iggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dance:' />

[Ayuna]

I honestly think the reason Im attracted to H!P is for both reasons hehe. I also just think that all of these girls have very unique personalities so I really like that about them also ^^

[Special Needs Tricycle]

Holy mother of huge signatures, please change that right now.

[strawberryjam]

[quote name='Ayuna' post='75997' date='Feb 20 2010, 08:08 PM']I honestly think the reason Im attracted to H!P is for both reasons hehe. I also just think that all of these girls have very unique personalities so I really like that about them also ^^[/quote]

Read the rules. And choose a smaller signature. WAY smaller.

[JPope]

[quote name='Em-El' post='75990' date='Feb 20 2010, 06:38 PM']Trike's response in the original thread pretty much said exactly what I wanted to say. There is no objective reality beyond sales numbers that says that the previous H!P members and material were better, and we all know that sales numbers are not indicators of quality. If all you care about is idols being dumb on variety shows, then an unpopular ratings draw will not help you.



These things are opinions and many non-objective things influence opinions. Have you never disliked a type of music or band, but then later in life came back to it and discovered a love for it? The band didn't change, but the listener's frame of reference did.



Everyone who got into H!P in the "golden age" who disparage the current generation of idols are just clouded with nostalgia. The overall quality has essentially been the same, with minor ups and downs along the way. There are excellent performers now, there were excellent performers then. There were bad performers then, there are bad performers now. The composition and arranging is still high quality. People just love what they're used to.[/quote]



Nope. The music really was better back then. I know this because it was the music that attracted me to the Hello! Project in the first place. Call it subjective if you want -- and it is -- but I can objectively say that if the music I heard back then was the music of the past few years, I never would have bothered to follow Tsunku's career. I became a fan of the individual personalities long after becoming a fan of the music, and it was probably close to a couple of years after discovering MM that I really became a huge fan of the members, since video dissemination via the net was pretty rare in the early 2000s.



People who got into any of the H!P groups around that time were lucky enough to experience the peak of Tsunku's creative period. He still unearths the rare gem even today, but from 2000 through 2003 damn near everything he produced was fucking gold. Fucking. Gold. He routinely adapted disparate musical styles successfully into catchy pop tunes, expertly arranged and competently, if often times unspectacularly, performed. For four years. WOW. Not quite Lennon/McCartney, but how many other composers can claim such a run? It would be folly to expect that run to continue, and I'm just thankful that I was able to experience it in real-time. Those songs were superior pop songs, not merely of the same quality that H!P is currently producing. If someone disagrees with that, that's their right, but don't tell me that my opinion is subjective and yours is objective. It's impossible to play both sides of that fence.



So what draws me to H!P today? Nothing, really. I don't consider myself a fan of H!P anymore, but I check out every MM single based on little more than the fact that I know Tsunku is still capable of producing a great song, and I'm a fan of great songs. Buono is the only group that I expect great music from anymore, but I don't really follow them beyond listening to their songs. I don't even know the names of any of the girls in Buono. I think the personalities that make up the Hello! Project are, for the most part, cookie cutter teen girls. It's just a different vibe now, one which I find rather uninteresting. The folks running H!P seem to have pitched a hammock on their laurels where they sip mini-umbrella festooned blue drinks, content to produce CDs and organize concerts for the same gaggle of Super Motas and foreign fans. But the odd "Resonant Blue" and Buono! -- even 3rd: Love Escalation -- still emerges, and thats what keeps me checking in.

[AEUGNewtype]

[quote name='JPope' post='76001' date='Feb 21 2010, 12:15 AM'][quote name='Em-El' post='75990' date='Feb 20 2010, 06:38 PM']

Everyone who got into H!P in the "golden age" who disparage the current generation of idols are just clouded with nostalgia. The overall quality has essentially been the same, with minor ups and downs along the way. There are excellent performers now, there were excellent performers then. There were bad performers then, there are bad performers now. The composition and arranging is still high quality. People just love what they're used to.[/quote]



Nope. The music really was better back then. I know this because it was the music that attracted me to the Hello! Project in the first place. Call it subjective if you want -- and it is -- but I can objectively say that if the music I heard back then was the music of the past few years, I never would have bothered to follow Tsunku's career. I became a fan of the individual personalities long after becoming a fan of the music, and it was probably close to a couple of years after discovering MM that I really became a huge fan of the members, since video dissemination via the net was pretty rare in the early 2000s.



People who got into any of the H!P groups around that time were lucky enough to experience the peak of Tsunku's creative period. He still unearths the rare gem even today, but from 2000 through 2003 damn near everything he produced was fucking gold. Fucking. Gold. He routinely adapted disparate musical styles successfully into catchy pop tunes, expertly arranged and competently, if often times unspectacularly, performed. For four years. WOW. Not quite Lennon/McCartney, but how many other composers can claim such a run? It would be folly to expect that run to continue, and I'm just thankful that I was able to experience it in real-time. Those songs were superior pop songs, not merely of the same quality that H!P is currently producing. If someone disagrees with that, that's their right, but don't tell me that my opinion is subjective and yours is objective. It's impossible to play both sides of that fence.

[/quote]

You guys are both fairly right on certain points. I'm not going to pick apart everything that everyone said, but ever since I came to know H!P back in 2001, it has always been about the music, and still is. The music is honestly no worse now than it ever was, but the freshness of the sound has come and passed, so if you're just someone who is constantly seeking something different all the time, then I could see you getting bored with some of the more recent H!P stuff, but the quality hasn't diminished at all, its basically the same quality of music and a lot of the same styles of music as it was back in the early 2000s, now they're just sung by different girls and often without some of the unique flair that some of the more common old-school arrangers had. Some of the older songs also hold a bit of unspoken or unconscious nostalgia to us, whether we'll admit it or not, be it the first time we heard such a unique song or the first time a certain girl caught our eye when watching the PV or something, these things stay with us and stay associated with that song for a long, long time. A lot of the stuff out of H!P nowadays is very streamlined to what has been successful in the past, as far as the sound goes, but when the composition and arrangements can STILL stay as good as they are, I see no reason to stop listening when its still enjoyable, just because it doesn't sound like a new "flavor of the week" every time they release a new song from the H!P umbrella.



Don't get me wrong, there have been some extended periods of time in certain artist's or group's careers that were down in the dumps, but all of them had the bad periods surrounded by great things on both sides. I understand and fully accept the fact that the quality will suffer here and there, especially nowadays, more than likely because Tsunku doesn't have the time to fully produce or write everything that comes out of H!P and has to delegate a lot and also just to consider how things have grown since those days when their mainstream popularity was still there. There began to be so many artists with so many different releases, it has to be hard to devote the same amount to all of them, when in the time through 2000-2003 there was still a somewhat minimal amount of "steady" groups active. Like Em El said, there hasn't been much of a change in what we're hearing, just a change in the frame of mind we have as listeners.



And as a reference to the original post that started the thread, I think if too much of your liking for H!P back in the old days was based on the "running around the stage, smiling, having fun" side of H!P, then I could see it being somewhat polarizing with the overall more serious tone the acts have today, but if you were in it for other reasons that haven't changed so much, then you wouldn't be very affected by it. Of course, all of that stuff was fun back in the day, but it always was just a sort of a side-note to the actual music production in my book, whereas some people seem to have it the other way around, being more into the girls, the image, and the personalities than the arts side of it.

[JPope]

[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' post='76006' date='Feb 21 2010, 01:43 AM']You guys are both fairly right on certain points. I'm not going to pick apart everything that everyone said, but ever since I came to know H!P back in 2001, it has always been about the music, and still is. The music is honestly no worse now than it ever was, but the freshness of the sound has come and passed, so if you're just someone who is constantly seeking something different all the time, then I could see you getting bored with some of the more recent H!P stuff, but the quality hasn't diminished at all, its basically the same quality of music and a lot of the same styles of music as it was back in the early 2000s, now they're just sung by different girls and often without some of the unique flair that some of the more common old-school arrangers had. Some of the older songs also hold a bit of unspoken or unconscious nostalgia to us, whether we'll admit it or not, be it the first time we heard such a unique song or the first time a certain girl caught our eye when watching the PV or something, these things stay with us and stay associated with that song for a long, long time. A lot of the stuff out of H!P nowadays is very streamlined to what has been successful in the past, as far as the sound goes, but when the composition and arrangements can STILL stay as good as they are, I see no reason to stop listening when its still enjoyable, just because it doesn't sound like a new "flavor of the week" every time they release a new song from the H!P umbrella.[/quote]

I have to disagree with this, and I offer as evidence the following:



"Love Machine", "Dance suru no da!" "I Wish", "Do It! Now", "Tokonatsu Musume", "Futari no Hokkaido", "Kōsui", "Akai Freesia", "Scramble", "Dokki Doki! Love Mail", "Tropical Koishiteru", "Love Namidairo", "100Kai no Kiss", "Ne~e?", "Aenai Nagai Nichiyōbi", "Romantic Ukare Mode", "Boogie Train '03", "Koi wo Shichaimashita!", "Ōjisama to Yuki no Yoru", "Motto", "Chokotto Love", "Baby! Koi ni Knock Out!".



Not necessarily in that order, nor is this list comprehensive. It's what I came up with sitting here thinking about each group and soloist of the 2000 - 2003 era. Even if your position were true -- that H!P is just recycling all of the great songs and styles of the past -- that would be damning enough, because retreads are rarely better than the original-- but they're not. With the exception of "Dance suru no da!" all of the songs I listed are singles, but the inclusion of album tracks would only further drive my point home. They represent a great diversity of styles and production -- a diversity that has not existed in the Hello! Project for several years now. I'm not even sure they could get away with releasing such a wide variety of music like that anymore and I'm frankly astonished that they got away with it for as long as they did, but my CD collection is certainly better for it. (The best H!P group going at the moment is Buono, and a case could be made that their success is in part related to their very narrowly focused sound and image.)



I'm not sure what today's version of "Koi wo Shichaimashita!", "Akai Freesia", or "Dokki Doki! Love Mail" are, much less today's version of "Love Machine", "Happy Summer Wedding" or "The Peace!". I submit to you that they simply don't exist. That's my perspective -- your mileage may vary. I'm not saying that you or Em-El are wrong to like today's H!P output as much as the Golden Era, but I take issue with Em-El reminding everyone that opinions are subjective while blithely stating as fact his opinion that the quality of today's H!P music is the same as that of the 2000 - 2003 era. It's not a fact for those who don't agree with him.

[Kaworu]

[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' post='76006' date='Feb 21 2010, 01:43 AM']And as a reference to the original post that started the thread, I think if too much of your liking for H!P back in the old days was based on the "running around the stage, smiling, having fun" side of H!P, then I could see it being somewhat polarizing with the overall more serious tone the acts have today, but if you were in it for other reasons that haven't changed so much, then you wouldn't be very affected by it. Of course, all of that stuff was fun back in the day, but it always was just a sort of a side-note to the actual music production in my book, whereas some people seem to have it the other way around, being more into the girls, the image, and the personalities than the arts side of it.[/quote]



First, I pretty much agree or would like to agree to everything you said. Maybe I'm giving too much thought into what the old school H!P was and maybe it hasn't changed that much... but I really don't get the same emotions when I see any of the current H!P acts performing...

I don't know, it's really hard to try to make everyone understand what I mean since the current fans will of course be "what are you talking about, H!P is still super fun and that's why we love it", and that argument is totally valid. After all were talking about fandom here and there's not too many deep explanations to that. But anyways, I will try to explain what I feel.



About the performance and fun part of H!P. Back then (and I'm not even talking about even 2000 back then but 2004 back then), I felt like H!P was all about entertainment. It was so exciting to see the girls having SO much fun. The music was well produced, the songs were ultra catchy and everything, but for me the visual part was what got me into them. I remember perfectly. I had seen H!P pictures in a few blogs online and I got curious. I donwloaded a song (Happy Summer Wedding) and found it cheesy and gay as hell. Then one day I stumbled with the RR21 video online and I watched. I remember falling in love immediately with Maki. Her smile was so warm and she was so beautiful in a way I had never seen before. The video to me was still STRANGE as hell to say the least, but Maki had me hooked. I decided to see more videos just to see her and then one day I decided to download a concert. There was a channel in IRC where nekonoai (who used to post here a lot) had ALL the H!P things one could ask for at the time and I downloaded the 2003 summer concert. And then, well, the rest is just history. I was SO into H!P. That concert got me into this craaazy world of japanese girls singing to really fast and catchy pop tunes, but specially girls that seemed to be having SO MUCH fun. It was mesmerizing and new. Of course I started to get all the stuff I could, and I resorted to downloaded past material: concert, songs, videos and TV appearances. It was so entertaining. I laughed my ass off watching H!M episodes in japanese, a language I didn't even understand a single word of! I watched dozens of concerts and performances, I was obsessed, and just because these girls were so entertaining to watch. The dances weren't great, the songs were silly to say the very least, but it was all so entertaining anyways. Maki stopped being my favorite after a while and I fell in love with Reina. She was badass. She had SO much energy in an agressive way. She was kinda like Miki in a way but cuter and softer... I don't know.

But what kept me looking at these girls was that even if they were all idols and were supposed to smile all the time and be cute and all, they were all so different from each other, and that kinda made them even more popular. Kaori couldn't dance to save her life and was really awkward in almost everything she did and still she was jumping and singing like there was no tomorrow and appearing in TV and making everyone laugh. TsujiKago were cute and witty and they were like 15 years old, Maki was an altogether complete performance but sometimes even her was outshined by the not-so-complete girls. It was effortless, it was nice, it was cool. Every girl new that they didn't have to be the greatest singers and sing ballads with aaahs and ooohs during the instrumental breaks of the songs. The songs were simple vocally but beautiful. The dances were more free and they just WENT for it! The performances were crack.



Trike posted a link to a Guru Guru performance and said it was more fun than what he had seen in any before 2005 performance... well, I can't think of any other way of arguing with that but to show another link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2sBeMB_ky8



That's koko ni iruzee from the sakuragumi concert in 2004. That was just after Nacchi had graduated. I decided to post that one for many reasons. First, it was a small arena. No huge scenario, not gigantic screens, not any added elements that could make the comparisson invalid. Second, most of the girls there are very well known by modern H!P fans.

Thrid, this song is also a crowd pleaser. It's supposed to make the audience scream and jump with the girls, just like I suppose Guru Guru jump is about. Watch it, and tell me if you really think that the guru guru performance is more fun.



I sincerely imagine that if (based solely in each perfomance) I had to choose which concert to attend I would choose the sakura gumi. The girls were SWEATING it! The same Ai, Risa, Eri that you know and love, were jumping their hearts out. They also looked and felt very different from today, don't you think? Eri was more shy, Ai was still a great performer and I could even say she was more into it back then, and every other single girl there was different from each other, but was really having fun and enjoying and giving 110%. I know that people are going to say "of course they changed, they grew up and are more professional and whatnot" and I really would respect and support that if they had grown into even more distinct and rich entertainers, but no. What I feel from modern H!P is that all the girls are the same!! Every girl is a decent dancer, every girl smiles the same way, even the ones that used to have a kinda unique personality faded!! Where's the eri that did eric kamezou!! Where's the Ai that said the most random things all the time, that have the cutest clueless face everytime someone asked her something, where's the badass Reina that sang and danced amazingly smiling only when strictly necessary? I feel that the one that has changed the least is Sayumi but then again they are all now kind of Sayu in a way: just cute idols that think they are cute.

And that is probably what turns me off about H!P nowadays. In that guru guru jump performance I feel like every girl is trying to be as cute as the cutest girl in the stage. Kaori would have not cared about that. Kei would have not either. And that makes it B O R I N G for me. Even if they are all smiling. Even if they are all (kind of) jumping and swinging their arms (on a sidenote, there's one dance step in both performances that is very similar, the round arm swing: it's SO clear the difference in the energy the girls put into that step in each one of the performances...), and the songs are similarly not that bad, it's just not entertaining in one of the cases. When I listen to koko no iruzee I remember all those concerts with the girls going wacko and I smile. When I listen to guru guru jump, I will remember all those girls dancing, looking and acting exactly the same to that song. And it won't excite me.



Of course I don't expect to convince anyone about "joining" my opinion. I respect everyone that is crazy into modern H!P. Very cool for them. And I know that fans will have tons of counter arguments to convince how fun and entertaining H!P still is but whatever.



I don't know, this is probably the largest post I have ever written here and maybe I wrote it because I want to understand why I don't like H!P anymore and it was torturing me. Believe me, it's been on my mind for a long time. I have wanted to understand why I just don't find all these girls I ADORED before interesting anymore. And maybe it's because they are just not the same girls anymore.



so yeah, this is like a duel for me. Let me be.

[Shoujo Q]

[quote name='Kaworu' post='76019' date='Feb 21 2010, 05:18 AM']Trike posted a link to a Guru Guru performance and said it was more fun than what he had seen in any before 2005 performance... well, I can't think of any other way of arguing with that but to show another link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2sBeMB_ky8



That's koko ni iruzee from the sakuragumi concert in 2004. That was just after Nacchi had graduated. I decided to post that one for many reasons. First, it was a small arena. No huge scenario, not gigantic screens, not any added elements that could make the comparisson invalid. Second, most of the girls there are very well known by modern H!P fans.

Thrid, this song is also a crowd pleaser. It's supposed to make the audience scream and jump with the girls, just like I suppose Guru Guru jump is about. Watch it, and tell me if you really think that the guru guru performance is more fun.[/quote]





I'll tell you one thing for sure, camera angels are off the charts in the Sakuragumi concert. It's totally insane. X_X



So I went to the Tube to see if I could find a recent Koko Ni Iruzee to counteract because that's the best way to compare. Guru Guru Jump isn't the same as Koko Ni Iruzee and it isn't one of my favorite songs and H!P DID perform Koko ni Iruzee in the Champloo concert SO I'll add in this 2009 performance to go against your 2005 performance. Because Koko ni Iruzee is the best song ever when you have a big group. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... iggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' /> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uZ1aB59QGs



Sure it's a bigger venue, more girls but Morning Musume are the main singers and 2009 Takahashi, and Risa blow 2005 versions of themselves out of the water. At least Takahashi does, she's just projecting a whole lot more. Risa and Eri seem to be having a lot of fun if you pay attention to what's going on onstage. It's like an easter egg watching a H!P performance because you'll find something new every time you watch a giant group performance. And I have no idea who is trilling their tongues half way though but they should have added that in the original because it's awesome. xD

[AEUGNewtype]

[quote name='JPope' post='76016' date='Feb 21 2010, 02:01 AM']I have to disagree with this, and I offer as evidence the following:



"Love Machine", "Dance suru no da!" "I Wish", "Do It! Now", "Tokonatsu Musume", "Futari no Hokkaido", "Kōsui", "Akai Freesia", "Scramble", "Dokki Doki! Love Mail", "Tropical Koishiteru", "Love Namidairo", "100Kai no Kiss", "Ne~e?", "Aenai Nagai Nichiyōbi", "Romantic Ukare Mode", "Boogie Train '03", "Koi wo Shichaimashita!", "Ōjisama to Yuki no Yoru", "Motto", "Chokotto Love", "Baby! Koi ni Knock Out!".



Not necessarily in that order, nor is this list comprehensive. It's what I came up with sitting here thinking about each group and soloist of the 2000 - 2003 era. Even if your position were true -- that H!P is just recycling all of the great songs and styles of the past -- that would be damning enough, because retreads are rarely better than the original-- but they're not. With the exception of "Dance suru no da!" all of the songs I listed are singles, but the inclusion of album tracks would only further drive my point home. They represent a great diversity of styles and production -- a diversity that has not existed in the Hello! Project for several years now. I'm not even sure they could get away with releasing such a wide variety of music like that anymore and I'm frankly astonished that they got away with it for as long as they did, but my CD collection is certainly better for it. (The best H!P group going at the moment is Buono, and a case could be made that their success is in part related to their very narrowly focused sound and image.)



I'm not sure what today's version of "Koi wo Shichaimashita!", "Akai Freesia", or "Dokki Doki! Love Mail" are, much less today's version of "Love Machine", "Happy Summer Wedding" or "The Peace!". I submit to you that they simply don't exist. That's my perspective -- your mileage may vary. I'm not saying that you or Em-El are wrong to like today's H!P output as much as the Golden Era, but I take issue with Em-El reminding everyone that opinions are subjective while blithely stating as fact his opinion that the quality of today's H!P music is the same as that of the 2000 - 2003 era. It's not a fact for those who don't agree with him.[/quote]

From everything you've said, I see a historical trend. Most of what you're citing as the greatest songs in H!P were all done by a select few arrangers, and they were all done either near the beginning of that arranger's career working with Tsunku, when ideas were still fresh and they hadn't already done the same thing literally hundreds of times, or were done by a few common arrangers. These arrangers have to have run out of ideas by the time late 2004-2005 came along and continues beyond. I sometimes surmise this may have had something to do with Dance*Man's separation from H!P for such a long time. He has recently started to work with Tsunku again, but maybe he felt he had ran out of ideas for pop songs for a while and wanted to make it fresh again (which I think worked.)



A lot of people also believe that during the period of time in which these songs were released, there was a certain sentiment among the Japanese public where they were accepting of anything that H!P put out for one reason or another, which I think gave a mental message to Tsunku that he could basically explore any kind of music he wanted and still be successful based on the kind of response everything had gotten up to that point. Some say it had to do with economy and cultural changes in Japanese society, or a kind of "loosening up" of the country as a whole to entertainment media. These are all things that may have effected the success of H!P back in those days, but it allowed a rare opportunity for a great musical mind to do a vast amount of exploration in a really short period of time, and without a lot of outside influence from record companies, meeting sales numbers and public expectations, etc, and yet also had the backing to make these recordings very professionally with good musicians and arrangers. And that's something we should never overlook, but again, there's still plenty of enjoyment to be had from his music now, especially in the midst of the other garbage music that's out on the market now.



It guess seemed necessary shortly after 2003 that everything shift to affect the mainstream market more, which is a fairly large blow for a group that had built itself on musical diversity up to that point, because unfortunately, the Japanese music market, just as any mainstream world music market, is based on releasing song after song that all sound really similar, at least for a certain period of time, until people lose interest and won't buy anymore. This is the main change that happened, and even though the music that comes out of H!P nowadays is still 10 times more unique than most of what's out on the Japanese market right now, it still has all the traces of mainstream music that bring it down a notch or two on originality. But again, even with this, the music is still of higher quality and more diversity than anything else out on the market right now. And from a business standpoint, this makes plenty of sense, though as fans, that may hurt us, its just something we have to learn to accept, and accepting it can be the first step into having a lot more current music to enjoy from Tsunku's ventures. And it seems like you're not really listening to everything that gets released from H!P groups nowadays, because the albums are often times to showcase the musical diversity, because in general, albums are the things that get released for the fans to buy, they're not trying to "sell" the artist to the public like they usually are with singles, so especially in a lot of the album tracks in the last few years, there has been some nice exploration aside from the fairly usual "sound" displayed in a lot of the modern singles.



Its still completely absurd to argue songs are objectively "better," that still depends on the listener. What if someone doesn't like musical diversity and likes to hear the same stuff over and over again? You can't deny them the right to enjoy current H!P more than the past.

[Ap2000]

I'm going to copypasta this here.



[quote name='Haruhitastic Power' post='76026' date='Feb 21 2010, 04:10 PM']the vocals around a little so Linlin gets more time and Sayu atleast gets more than an "AH~" but I am otherwise pleased with the girls.

I think I'm one of the few here who actually likes Ai and Reina's voices.[/quote]



I don't dislike Ai and Reina, nor their voices. They both can sing quite well, but it's just that they are sooo overused after all this years that I want to hear the others more and make it sound fresh again, III JA NAAAAI ?

[neshcom]

[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' post='76028' date='Feb 21 2010, 11:24 AM']Its still completely absurd to argue songs are objectively "better," that still depends on the listener. What if someone doesn't like musical diversity and likes to hear the same stuff over and over again? You can't deny them the right to enjoy current H!P more than the past.[/quote]

There's still got something to be said about production values, artistic merit, depth, and just the feeling of done-ness that the older songs have.They didn't have to make these songs on the cheap back then. Instead of just using Tsunku for backup, songs actually used some of the members to do backing vocals. I mentioned this in another thread, but look at WHY (3rdLP). Every character is sung by a different member in a round-robin style (except the backing lines in the chorus).



I know you can say everyone has likes and dislikes and feelings are all personal, but the quality of work from earlier compared to now is much higher.

[AEUGNewtype]

[quote name='neshcom' post='76030' date='Feb 21 2010, 10:33 AM'][quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' post='76028' date='Feb 21 2010, 11:24 AM']Its still completely absurd to argue songs are objectively "better," that still depends on the listener. What if someone doesn't like musical diversity and likes to hear the same stuff over and over again? You can't deny them the right to enjoy current H!P more than the past.[/quote]

There's still got something to be said about production values, artistic merit, depth, and just the feeling of done-ness that the older songs have.They didn't have to make these songs on the cheap back then. Instead of just using Tsunku for backup, songs actually used some of the members to do backing vocals. I mentioned this in another thread, but look at WHY (3rdLP). Every character is sung by a different member in a round-robin style (except the backing lines in the chorus).



I know you can say everyone has likes and dislikes and feelings are all personal, but the quality of work from earlier compared to now is much higher.

[/quote]

There's a difference between "production quality" and how enjoyable something is to a certain person. Something can have the highest production value ever, but everything else doesn't back it up, it can fall just as flat as something recorded in someone's garage, and vice versa as well. I understand you're gushing about old songs, and believe me, 3rd LOVE Paradise changed the way I view pop albums, so I'm not un-used to that, but what's being stated here is a more general statement that's melding some of our personal opinions about music to say that things were more enjoyable back then.



Also think of a situation of someone in Japan who used to dislike H!P as a whole when they were really popular or in the "golden age" because they were too over-played, too over-exposed and they just plain didn't like the output of music that was coming out at the time. But then 2007 came along and they started to like a few of the songs from the artists and are now into the newer H!P groups a decent amount solely based on newer music. You can't say they don't have the right to like the music they like just because you don't think it has the production values it should to make it a high-caliber song release. And we can't judge "effort" by any standardized level, that's something that shouldn't even be mentioned. You can see a piece of art in a museum and dismiss it to say "I could've done that in an hour" but the person who put the effort into it spent 5 years of their life on it. Amount of effort is unmeasurable by an outsider and fairly irrelevant to the discussion.

[neshcom]

[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' post='76031' date='Feb 21 2010, 11:39 AM'][quote name='neshcom' post='76030' date='Feb 21 2010, 10:33 AM'][quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' post='76028' date='Feb 21 2010, 11:24 AM']Its still completely absurd to argue songs are objectively "better," that still depends on the listener. What if someone doesn't like musical diversity and likes to hear the same stuff over and over again? You can't deny them the right to enjoy current H!P more than the past.[/quote]

There's still got something to be said about production values, artistic merit, depth, and just the feeling of done-ness that the older songs have.They didn't have to make these songs on the cheap back then. Instead of just using Tsunku for backup, songs actually used some of the members to do backing vocals. I mentioned this in another thread, but look at WHY (3rdLP). Every character is sung by a different member in a round-robin style (except the backing lines in the chorus).



I know you can say everyone has likes and dislikes and feelings are all personal, but the quality of work from earlier compared to now is much higher.

[/quote]

There's a difference between "production quality" and how enjoyable something is to a certain person. Something can have the highest production value ever, but everything else doesn't back it up, it can fall just as flat as something recorded in someone's garage, and vice versa as well. I understand you're gushing about old songs, and believe me, 3rd LOVE Paradise changed the way I view pop albums, so I'm not un-used to that, but what's being stated here is a more general statement that's melding some of our personal opinions about music to say that things were more enjoyable back then.



Also think of a situation of someone in Japan who used to dislike H!P as a whole when they were really popular or in the "golden age" because they were too over-played, too over-exposed and they just plain didn't like the output of music that was coming out at the time. But then 2007 came along and they started to like a few of the songs from the artists and are now into the newer H!P groups a decent amount solely based on newer music. You can't say they don't have the right to like the music they like just because you don't think it has the production values it should to make it a high-caliber song release. And we can't judge "effort" by any standardized level, that's something that shouldn't even be mentioned. You can see a piece of art in a museum and dismiss it to say "I could've done that in an hour" but the person who put the effort into it spent 5 years of their life on it. Amount of effort is unmeasurable by an outsider and fairly irrelevant to the discussion.

[/quote]

I never compared the effort put into the songs to anybody else, I did say anyone didn't have the right to like anything (even current releases), and I understand that someone can still like the works that come out more than older works. I didn't really even mention what I considered enjoyable, I was commenting on the overall production of the songs; older works are more fully-developed and beyond expectation than the generic pop-rock that comes out now. Maybe everything I said is completely personal just to me, but I stick by what I said.

[AEUGNewtype]

[quote name='neshcom' post='76033' date='Feb 21 2010, 11:18 AM']Maybe everything I said is completely personal just to me, but I stick by what I said.[/quote]

There's nothing wrong with that, that's exactly what we're in this thread for, is to talk about what draws you to H!P. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... umbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

[strawberryjam]

Just some short comments....



I got bored of H!P long ago, but they do have some few songs that slip through that are great still.



MM is boring now because it's not about being fun anymore. I think management gave up on them being interesting, so instead they sing "cool" songs. But since they were mostly meant to be girl-next-door types that occasionally turn into gems, they're really mediocre compared to Kpop girl groups who actually have to train. H!P was also never meant to be cool which is why they're not doing so well. IMO, Maki is doing much better things with Avex instead of grabbing her boobs in GnP (not that I didn't love that song, but she could do better still). And one other thing, I love how awkward the girls used to be when they joined. I feel like that factor got lost completely...



All the "cute" songs are all a rehash. Some end up being good, but most are reallllyyyy boring. I don't know, I find Guardians 4 and S/mileage really boring. Berryz & C-ute are boring too with the exception of a few songs.



I definitely loved MM before for being so cute and fun. But I'll stick around to be an evil princess with Sayumi. And just best friends with Eri. And twins with Jun Jun.

[JPope]

[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' post='76028' date='Feb 21 2010, 11:24 AM']From everything you've said, I see a historical trend. Most of what you're citing as the greatest songs in H!P were all done by a select few arrangers, and they were all done either near the beginning of that arranger's career working with Tsunku, when ideas were still fresh and they hadn't already done the same thing literally hundreds of times, or were done by a few common arrangers. These arrangers have to have run out of ideas by the time late 2004-2005 came along and continues beyond. I sometimes surmise this may have had something to do with Dance*Man's separation from H!P for such a long time. He has recently started to work with Tsunku again, but maybe he felt he had ran out of ideas for pop songs for a while and wanted to make it fresh again (which I think worked.)



.....



(snipped for brevity's sake)[/quote]



I don't see how any of this squares with the opinion that the music of today's H!P is exactly the same as that if 2000 - 2003. If anything, you've made an argument to the contrary.



[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' post='76028' date='Feb 21 2010, 11:24 AM']Its still completely absurd to argue songs are objectively "better," that still depends on the listener. What if someone doesn't like musical diversity and likes to hear the same stuff over and over again? You can't deny them the right to enjoy current H!P more than the past.[/quote]

Well it's a good thing I never suggested that. I would caution others to realize that stating things like "Everyone who got into H!P in the "golden age" who disparage the current generation of idols are just clouded with nostalgia. The overall quality has essentially been the same, with minor ups and downs along the way" or "the quality hasn't diminished at all, its basically the same quality of music and a lot of the same styles of music as it was back in the early 2000s" is stating an opinion, not fact.

[JPope]

[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' post='76031' date='Feb 21 2010, 11:39 AM']Also think of a situation of someone in Japan who used to dislike H!P as a whole when they were really popular or in the "golden age" because they were too over-played, too over-exposed and they just plain didn't like the output of music that was coming out at the time. But then 2007 came along and they started to like a few of the songs from the artists and are now into the newer H!P groups a decent amount solely based on newer music. You can't say they don't have the right to like the music they like just because you don't think it has the production values it should to make it a high-caliber song release.[/quote]

Are there really that many people who fit this description?



I'm getting a whiff of defensive elitism from some fans of the current H!P towards those who see it as being inferior to the Golden Age. No one is saying that you can't be a fan of today's H!P. I'm seeing what can only be called projection on the part of some when they essentially accuse old-schoolers of not realizing that their opinions are subjective, when none of them are actually suggesting that at all. Furthermore, it is not the old-schoolers who make pronouncements like "Everyone who got into H!P in the "golden age" who disparage the current generation of idols are just clouded with nostalgia. The overall quality has essentially been the same" right after telling us that opinions are subjective.



Here's how it works, objectively. When someone says that the Golden Age pwns the new school, they are not saying that people should not be allowed to enjoy the new school, or that you are a bad or inferior person for liking it. They are stating their opinion. They don't need anyone reminding them that it is just their opinion. They already know that. When you say "Hey man, you can't objectively say that one era is better than the other, both eras are pretty much the same" you are just stating your opinion. You can't objectively say that both eras are equal in quality of music or production.

[Geof]

I'm in a very similar position to JPope, in that Buono!'s really the only act I can expect consistently great songs from. BUT... I do know ONE member's name, so SUCK ON THAT, POSEUR! <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... >/rofl.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />



So what draws me to Hello! Project today? Same as it's always been: the music. Sure it was fun watching Utaban appearances throughout the early-to-mid 2000s, and I even kept up with Hello! Morning for a year or so. But I've always cared far more about the songs than the girls singing them, and honestly am still quite surprised to see how much everyone seems to know about whichever member. I won't go into the then-vs-now argument over musical quality, but I do feel that the great majority of music that H!P put out up until around 2004 was crazy fun, and that's what attracted me to it in the 1st place. But that doesn't mean that I consider the music released since then to be worse, just in a different style.



After I saw this thread, I went through my iPod & made an On-the-go playlist of what I consider "must-listen" songs in my Morning Musume playlist (which includes all songs except the ones from "Morning Cop".) I was a little surprised to see that out of the 96 songs I picked, 43 of them were post-"Best! Morning Musume 2", and that "Sexy 8 Beat" had more songs picked from it than from most other albums (it tied with "No. 5", but "Second Morning" still wins by 2 songs.)



So while I obviously don't think then or now is "better", I think it's more accurate to say I think Hello! Project was more unique then, and I point directly to JPope's song list to back this statement. And while I like much of what they've done in recent years, it's also not done terribly better or worse than most any other J-Pop artist, and I think that's probably their biggest problem now.

[Zounder]

I like the music. Nice and simple. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... popper.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

[EmEl]

[quote name='JPope' post='76001' date='Feb 21 2010, 01:15 AM']Nope. The music really was better back then. I know this because it was the music that attracted me to the Hello! Project in the first place. Call it subjective if you want -- and it is[/quote]

Then instead of "nope" you should have written "yep".



[quote name='JPope' post='76016' date='Feb 21 2010, 03:01 AM']I'm not saying that you or Em-El are wrong to like today's H!P output as much as the Golden Era, but I take issue with Em-El reminding everyone that opinions are subjective while blithely stating as fact his opinion that the quality of today's H!P music is the same as that of the 2000 - 2003 era. It's not a fact for those who don't agree with him.[/quote]

Sorry, I thought we were past the days of the internet during which we had to start all sentences with "in my opinion." I'm sorry I stated my opinion strongly. In the future I will be more submissive.



[quote name='JPope' post='76052' date='Feb 21 2010, 02:01 PM']Furthermore, it is not the old-schoolers who make pronouncements like "Everyone who got into H!P in the "golden age" who disparage the current generation of idols are just clouded with nostalgia. The overall quality has essentially been the same" right after telling us that opinions are subjective.[/quote]

But I would say it's just as true the other way around. IN MY OPINION, the people who only stick to the new H!P instead of checking out their awesome history do it because they stick with what they know. They fit into the same category. At least, that's what I think.



[quote name='JPope' post='76052' date='Feb 21 2010, 02:01 PM']Here's how it works, objectively. When someone says that the Golden Age pwns the new school, they are not saying that people should not be allowed to enjoy the new school, or that you are a bad or inferior person for liking it. They are stating their opinion. They don't need anyone reminding them that it is just their opinion. They already know that. When you say "Hey man, you can't objectively say that one era is better than the other, both eras are pretty much the same" you are just stating your opinion. You can't objectively say that both eras are equal in quality of music or production.[/quote]

PS: IN MY OPINION, the music has essentially been the same. I guess sometimes people really do need reminders that things are opinions since you appear to believe that I thought what I was saying was a fact. Defensive elitism and projection must be what it is, since that's what seems to be coming from you. You're doing the same thing that you're accusing me of doing: you're telling me that my opinion is my opinion. Why are you smart enough to know that your own opinions are opinion, but somehow you believe that I'm not?



But what do I know? That's all just my opinion.

[tsukinobyouin]

[quote name='neshcom' post='76030' date='Feb 21 2010, 11:33 AM']They didn't have to make these songs on the cheap back then. Instead of just using Tsunku for backup, songs actually used some of the members to do backing vocals.[/quote]



Actually...MM sings their own back-up vocals all the time. Pretty much every recent release I've seen from MM has a credit at the bottom of the lyrics that notes which members did the back-up vocals. They've also brought back harmonies within the main songs. Obviously not as often as the did in the super early 1gen/2gen days, but it seems to pop up more often than say...in the 2003-04 period.



Also just a reminder to most people in this thread....this is the "What draws you to HP" thread, not the "Why do you think current H!P sucks" thread.

[Gerald]

It may be simplistic but surely it all boils down to "I like what I like", if you want to think the older music and members were better fine, if you think the newer music and members are better then equally fine.



I take a fair amount of (humorous) flak from friends about liking H!P, or "Japcrap" as one friend whimsically calls it, but it doesn't worry me, I like it and that's all that matters, I am too damn old to give a toss about peer pressure. So if whichever side you line up on then great just let the other side have their opinion whether you agree or not although I suppose this place wouldn't be the same if everybody agreed with everybody else and spent all their time group-hugging (and that's why I come here <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... umbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />).