Yet another H!P vs AKB48 thread

[DarkRidley]

[quote name='Plum' post='88909' date='Dec 13 2010, 01:31 AM']Let me start off by saying that AKB48 creeps me out, and not in any small way. I literally feel physically revolted looking at their recent videos, and have often felt that I see some sort of underlying abusive and almost rape-centered vibe that no one else does. Everything from school uniforms and keyhole peeping appearing in the same video to a PV composed almost entirely of the girls being hurt in some way (including the infamous screaming in the uncensored version of Beginner)... it just makes me feel as if the sole purpose is to make these girls seem like you could just have your way with them, as if they are powerless and harmless and almost subhuman. It's objectification in a way that really hits a bad personal note with me, and I despise everything PV AKB has released recently. Don't even get me started on their video game.



I am not remotely a person that searches or is on the lookout for sexist issues. In fact, I often feel like I'm blind to a fault about discrimination and subtle problems regarding treatment of women. AKB, however, makes me want to set their production company on fire.[/quote]

Hmm. I see a lot of this type of talk, but honestly I don't agree that AKB's sexual aspect is any worse than H!P's, just more overt (although I think both can be problematic). They both sexualise innocence, but H!P (besides certain groups and artists like v-u-den) does it in a more childish, infantile way - sex minus the sex. Decaffeinated sex, which removes the "bad" element of sex like decaf removes the "bad" element of coffee. But it's not just the removal of assertive female sexuality, but the overt expression of any sexuality altogether. It's really the sexualisation of asexuality, which to me has a more paedo vibe to it than AKB's naughty, non-threatening schoolgirls. I do think you're misreading Beginner and the whole "abusive" thing, though; AKB is certainly about girls who are harmless and submissive, but I've never read any implications of abuse or rape into them.



Anyway,



I don't have much to say because I do to a large extent agree with the guy. Obviously, I'm still a fan of J-pop, and not really a fan of K-pop, but I think his analysis of K-pop's success in Japan was pretty on the mark. On the other hand, I think there could be an element of Korea being fetishised by the Japanese consumers, like Eri seemed to be doing, but this is only speculation on my part. I also don't think that SNSD's musical "quality" is any better, in the sense that more effort was put into it or something. It's different compared to J-pop, for sure, but it's as manufactured as AKB and MM.



What it does get me thinking about is my own preference for AKB and Morning Musume over groups like SNSD, not just musically, but visually. Hell, I do to some extent feel threatened by the more assertive sexuality of K-pop girl groups. I do like some of SNSD's songs, but the group holds virtually no visual appeal to me compared to the J-idols. I kind of see what he means when he call AKB or Morning Musume "unattractive," but I can't honestly agree or emphasise with it on a personal level, and I've never found Yoona all that good-looking. When I read blogs like this, I have to seriously wonder (or worry) that the only thing stopping me from being some wota turd is my own conscious decision to reject it.

[strawberryjam]

One question I have difficulty finding an answer to is (and I'm sure a lot of people around here too) is why Japanese girl teens would like AKB48. I really like them myself, but I've always been a fan of idols and especially of times of H!P sucking, AKB48 is a good alternative to me. Why the average normal girl would like them though?



I can see the author's point and it makes sense, but figuring it the other way, I can't. Maybe they're risque so people can't help, but stop and look? And everyone's interested now? Anyways, I think answering this would help find our answer to the original question.



Also, agreed completely with DarkRidley. H!P's sexuality is just as bad as AKB48. I was younger when I loved Kago. But I feel sorry for her being pushed into that kiddy image so long. All for a couple of wotas. On the other hand, one of the original youngest members in AKB48 (Tomochin) has grown up. They didn't let her carry that image for YEARS. Instead she's a fashion icon who is a regular for modeling in fashion magazines and going solo next month.



In my opinion, at the basics of it, SNSD and AKB48 run on completely different business models. SNSD's appeal depends on their talent and how much more polished they are. AKB48 are idols you can meet everyday. The longevity depends on which model people like more.

[Ap2000]

[quote name='strawberryjam' post='88931' date='Dec 13 2010, 10:25 AM']One question I have difficulty finding an answer to is (and I'm sure a lot of people around here too) is why Japanese girl teens would like AKB48. I really like them myself, but I've always been a fan of idols and especially of times of H!P sucking, AKB48 is a good alternative to me. Why the average normal girl would like them though?[/quote]



I think it's because they want to be like the members themselves. (of course some just like the music in general)

[DarkRidley]

[quote name='Petit Melon' post='88967' date='Dec 13 2010, 11:47 PM']I would like to say the the circle jerk is directed at Dark Ridley. Only because Tsuki said I should bring my original post back! XDDDD[/quote]

what is this i don't even



No, really, I'm kind of lost. I didn't mention anything about the girls who like AKB or Morning Musume. My post was mostly about the image the groups project of sexuality and how I interpreted it, and I never said the article was groundbreaking, although I do largely agree with it. I'm not trying to be intellectual or verbose, either. I mean, let's be realistic - it's just a group of Japanese girls who act like 12-year-olds and have a lot of old, male, pervy fans. It's not really a leap to say that sexuality is definitely a direct factor for most of them in idol fandom, and the type of sexuality MM project has got to be very pertinent there.

[JPope]

[quote name='Petit Melon' post='88976' date='Dec 13 2010, 08:29 PM']Your entire argument is based around idols being fuels for fetishes. It's not.



The sexualization of the girls is dependent on the perception of the watcher.[/quote]

I don't want to delve too much into the greater conversation of the article -- I'm more interested in the Sunny love thread-jacking -- but lemme play Devil's advocate here and suggest that it's possible that the marketers of groups like MM and AKB are assuming a particular perception when they decide on a particular image for their groups.

[Pflaume]

This post brought to you in two parts.



PART ONE



Alright, one last hop on the serious train... DarkRidley, it is really hard to miss the sleazy rape bait aspect of AKB's marketing. That's all I even know to say. It's that obvious. There is no intellectual, poetic analyzing... If you don't see it, I can't help you. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':puppyeyes:' />





PART TWO (regularly scheduled programming)



Yeah, I think hand painting ceramic tiles might be a little closer to the "sending her locks of my hair glued together with blood" kind of fandom, but I appreciate that someone thought my papercraft was neat enough to not just be me and a printer and some posterboard. I will get insecure about it for a minute and point out that the tape is not as obvious in person, though. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wub:' />



This Sunny love has made me genuinely happy. I knew you people were good eggs.



I leave you with this:

[surasshu]

Ok I got one more thing to add anyway <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wub:' />. I love that this guy claims AKB48 has sort of toned down the overt sexuality of Onyanko Club. Clearly he hasn't seen my favorite AKB48 song! (JPope, this is BOUNCEBACK-produced and basically in the "loli-sexy-synthpop" style of SweetS, specifically it's basically Lonesome Cherry 2.0, so you might get a kick out of it): AKB48 誘惑のガーター Live



Notice the last line of that song... This is why I can't REALLY be a fan. Can't listen to that without headphones, can I? <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wub:' />



Haha, that gif is awesome. And yeah I know what you mean with the tape, I used transparent tape on a (pretty ghetto) Halloween mask, and it was incredibly obvious in pictures but looked pretty much fine in reality. It was just that the reflection looked like tiles for some reason (that and the fact that it was put together tightly). <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... umbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':puppyeyes:' />

[DarkRidley]

[quote name='Petit Melon' post='88976' date='Dec 14 2010, 02:29 AM']Your entire argument is based around idols being fuels for fetishes. It's not.



The sexualization of the girls is dependent on the perception of the watcher.[/quote]

Why shouldn't the marketers themselves be attempting to project a certain sexuality in order to attract the fans? One of the biggest parts (if not the biggest part) of the idol industry is sex. If it were a bunch of middle-aged dudes making the same music that H!P do now and promoting as themselves, do you really think it would attract the same people? Similarly, if Morning Musume were all 6 foot, SNSD-leggy and performed sexier dances and songs, they'd have a very different audience. Just because some people choose to sexualise the girls in different ways doesn't mean that they aren't designed by the marketers to project a very specific image of female sexuality and push that onto the groups audience. I mean, a book's message isn't always dependent on the reader. Sometimes an interpretation is just plain wrong.



[quote name='Plum' post='88989' date='Dec 14 2010, 06:14 AM']This post brought to you in two parts.



PART ONE



Alright, one last hop on the serious train... DarkRidley, it is really hard to miss the sleazy rape bait aspect of AKB's marketing. That's all I even know to say. It's that obvious. There is no intellectual, poetic analyzing... If you don't see it, I can't help you. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':puppyeyes:' />[/quote]

Sleazy, sure. But rape? I can understand where you get sleazy from with their "take off my uniform" and keyhole peeping (although I hold that H!P is no better in its own way), but I really don't see how you can read abuse into them. I'm sure it's obvious to you, but I've never seen it before from anyone else. I've seen people say all kinds of crap about AKB, whether that they're "dirtier" than the pure virginal beauties of H!P or even the reverse (but from the angle that they are at least more honest than H!P and deliver the goods without dilly-dallying), but never that there are implications of abuse, rape and pain in AKB.

[Pflaume]

Ok, wait, did you seriously just say that being unwillingly watched undressing through a keyhole isn't a form of sexual abuse?

[Melon]

I'll tackle the first part in the morning when I'm awake enough to properly reply, but dude



WHAT FUCKING MINDSET DO YOU HAVE WHERE VOYEURISM IS NOT A FUCKING FORM OF SEXUAL ABUSE.



DO YOU KNOW HOW VIOLATED A GIRL FEELS WHEN THAT SHIT HAPPENS?



I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU'RE EVEN ARGUING THIS SHIT LIKE IT'S A REASONABLE OCCURRENCE.



You genuinely disgust me right now.

[DarkRidley]

Whoa, hold up. I agree with you. Voyeurism is a form of abuse. I have a lot of problems with Heavy Rotation's video, and it certainly presents a demaning male fantasy. I was tired when I made my post and it was out-of-line. I apologise. As I've said, I find AKB problematic in many ways.



I still, however, find H!P as bad as AKB in that regard. Idols are not real people. They are made to present a fantasy. In that light, I think the way that H!P girls are infantilised and made to act like little girls for an audience of older guys can get pretty disturbing.

[Pflaume]

[quote name='DarkRidley' post='89003' date='Dec 14 2010, 06:18 AM']Whoa, hold up. I agree with you. Voyeurism is a form of abuse. I have a lot of problems with Heavy Rotation's video, and it certainly presents a demaning male fantasy. I was tired when I made my post and it was out-of-line. I apologise. As I've said, I find AKB problematic in many ways.[/quote]



I appreciate your apology. Your sentiments about AKB weren't really expressed in your post.



[quote name='DarkRidley' post='89003' date='Dec 14 2010, 06:18 AM']I still, however, find H!P as bad as AKB in that regard. Idols are not real people. They are made to present a fantasy. In that light, I think the way that H!P girls are infantilised and made to act like little girls for an audience of older guys can get pretty disturbing.[/quote]



I read this last night and actually decided to give you a shot to edit this sentence before I responded, but you didn't. I feel forced to address it.



Idols are not real people? Huh? If they were plants I wouldn't be as upset about them feeding each other cream donuts in cat lingerie. I'd make it into a gif and use it to annoy the admins.



Idols are people. Of course the image isn't really their personality, but isn't that half the problem? The fact is there are real girls under there with dignity and vulnerability. They are worthy of the same respect as any other person. This is an inherent problem with sexually charged media. However, the direction AKB goes with this upsets me more than most because of all the things I already mentioned.



Also, while I agree that Hello!Project can get disturbing (and I said as much in my initial post), the aspect of unwillingly being violated, or even being violated and "liking it" is generally not as strong. Even so, it's why I didn't miss following them once I started phasing myself out of MM fandom. It wasn't the sole reason I started bailing, but it sure made me glad I did.



I will also go back to my statements about Beginner, just because I wanted to address it earlier and forgot. In and of itself, taking Beginner as I did would be a stretch. However, in context of all of AKB's activities... their previous videos, the general angle they play at and the creepy parts of the fandom they cater to, it was incredibly awkward. The fact that the PV is almost entirely them being hurt with their "escape" being a tacked on afterthought is telling. The focus of the video was not them being badass videogame heroines; it was them being hurt in various ways. That's just odd.



I am sure some people would say that the context is not important. It absolutely is. It is the difference between how you and I would perceive a small girl enjoying a s/mileage video, vs. a 40 year old man that could be described as a wota watching the same thing.

[DarkRidley]

I read this last night and actually decided to give you a shot to edit this sentence before I responded, but you didn't. I feel forced to address it.



Idols are not real people? Huh? If they were plants I wouldn't be as upset about them feeding each other cream donuts in cat lingerie. I'd make it into a gif and use it to annoy the admins.



Idols are people. Of course the image isn't really their personality, but isn't that half the problem? The fact is there are real girls under there with dignity and vulnerability. They are worthy of the same respect as any other person. This is an inherent problem with sexually charged media. However, the direction AKB goes with this upsets me more than most because of all the things I already mentioned.

Yes, I agree with that, but that wasn't really my point with that sentence. I'm not trying to say that the girls themselves aren't real people. I meant something more along the lines of their image is a fantasy. I just used the word "idols" because they are not real people as idols.

Also, while I agree that Hello!Project can get disturbing (and I said as much in my initial post), the aspect of unwillingly being violated, or even being violated and "liking it" is generally not as strong. Even so, it's why I didn't miss following them once I started phasing myself out of MM fandom. It wasn't the sole reason I started bailing, but it sure made me glad I did.

Yeah, but I wouldn't expect H!P to be like that. There are a totally different series of problems with H!P. The way AKB are presented in Heavy Rotation is almost like a porn film in its absurdity and its portrayal/objectification of the girls. As you put it, they act as though they "like" being violated, which is clearly worrying for a mainstream music video. H!P, on the other hand, literally go out of their way to avoid any obvious reference to sexuality with the exception of specific groups. They're taking in girls at age 12, throwing them out when they become women, and all the while make them act like they never actually aged past 12. And it's all aimed primarily at men, complete with creepy voyeuristic photobooks. I mean, it's not directly encouraging the sexualisation of prepubescents, but it certainly does push a really skewed, infantile sexuality. This, to me, is as disturbing as anything AKB has done. AKB's image of submissive, naughty school girls who "want" older men spying on them, lusting after them, etc. is more immediately and obviously offensive, but I don't think it's necessarily worse.

I will also go back to my statements about Beginner, just because I wanted to address it earlier and forgot. In and of itself, taking Beginner as I did would be a stretch. However, in context of all of AKB's activities... their previous videos, the general angle they play at and the creepy parts of the fandom they cater to, it was incredibly awkward. The fact that the PV is almost entirely them being hurt with their "escape" being a tacked on afterthought is telling. The focus of the video was not them being badass videogame heroines; it was them being hurt in various ways. That's just odd.

Context is clearly important here, and in that light I can see how you interpreted Beginner. It's difficult to assess, though, especially with their current mainstream popularity (they have previously made efforts to target girls and the mainstream audience). I also don't think AKB have ever taken the specific angle of the girls being hurt in that way before.

[eri]

[quote name='Plum' post='89016' date='Dec 14 2010, 10:30 AM'][quote name='DarkRidley' post='89003' date='Dec 14 2010, 06:18 AM']I still, however, find H!P as bad as AKB in that regard. Idols are not real people. They are made to present a fantasy. In that light, I think the way that H!P girls are infantilised and made to act like little girls for an audience of older guys can get pretty disturbing.[/quote]



Of course the image isn't really their personality, but isn't that half the problem? The fact is there are real girls under there with dignity and vulnerability.

[/quote]



Hm, not to jump into the fray but it seems like the two of you are actually agreeing here: that there is a tension between an idol as a real human being and an IDOL as a produced, sexualized, consummable object.



I don't follow AKB and can't add much. However, I thought the Mujack show had this interesting moment when the Seishun Collection PV was briefly juxtaposed with an AKB one. Seishun had all the girls dancing and singing in a field, in those fucking hideous green/blue matching outfits. Very differently, the AKB one showed no girls singing....just girls in bikinis (or underwear?) kissing each other in some man's fantasy of a lesbian slumber party. You might say that H!P and AKB are only different by degrees, but I'd say those degrees make a damn huge difference depending on the context <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... wheely.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />



Well, I think PQ & Plum had 2 good points that I just want to follow up on:

1. Consumer reception does differ to some extent.

The neojpn article has problems because it presumes that the sexual marketing angle for adult men translates in the same way to the various people who consume the product. It is pretty damn obvious that this AKB video is explicitly pandering a vulnerable, hyper-sexual image of women to a voyeur male eye. It is uncomfortable to link it with other otaku products that celebrate an identically warped image of a woman as a mere childish (therefore passive) sex toy. However, an 8 year old kid who just idolizes any onee-san in a cute school uniform probably doesn't understand the differences between H!P and AKB. A 16 year old fan might find AKB's sexuality to be inspirational and freeing. I do NOT think it is "just relative/ subjective/ me me me" but there is a much more diverse symbolic world that idols occupy beyond their immediate marketed image.



In short: one's personal enjoyment and the idols' marketing image are not mutually exclusive. Yes, I can hate the exploitative and slutty stuff while yes, watching it because I also really like Reina's hair in this video (or whatever).



2. Underneath the idol is a normal girl

I have heard girls say they want to be sexy, a gravure model, a porn star, the hottest girl in the room. For the most part, they are aware of their own sexual image and want to be empowered by it. They are complicit in it. Not inherently a bad thing.

Whenever they ask these H!P kids (or AKB's Takahashi) what their dream is, they say "I want to be a singer" or "I want to be famous/glamorous." Surely, they want to be pretty/sexy too but my point is, they are individual girls who got into the entertainment industry because of their own goals. Satou Sumire auditions for both MM and AKB because she wanted to be a singer...not because she wanted to be some tween sex fantasy, right?

When idols are sexualized in a certain way --made passive, unaware, stupid, onyako-club-teens-who-don't-know-they-are-singing-about-sex-jokes-- there is something really sad and exploitative and scary about that.



So, when 16 year old Kago was lisping and hopping around in her hair buns, I felt pretty annoyed at the creepy way she was pimping her babyish face + GIANT BOOBS. But, it was different from the discomfort I felt when Maki was really embarrassed about that PB (cover of her bending over in a yellow bikini). Yeah yeah, she's an idol and she knew she was posing in a bikini blah blah, but I also felt like that moment was out of her control and that she was a little scammed. For the last few years, Morning Musume feels more like the former -- a controlled but aware blending of sex appeal and other talents. My initial impression is that AKB feels more like the latter -- a lot of hopeful girls who still get famous but are also expected to play into some wota fantasy. I'm sure this isn't uniform across all 12093810289310 members but that's just the initial impression I got.



tl;dr.



Surfing sheep!

[Special Needs Tricycle]

I know that it's not mentioned in this thread, but it was in the other and I want to educate. Onyanko Club was NOT PRODUCED BY AKIMOTO YASUSHI. HE WROTE SOME OF THEIR SONGS (INCLUDING SAILOR FUKU WO NUGASANAIDE) BUT HE WAS NOT THEIR ~PRODUCER. Please stop comparing that amazing flawless OG idol group to 48 media-blitzed blow-up dolls. I have nothing to add to this other than that.

[al kusanagi]

Hey Adachi, what about them AKB girls?







Thanks bro.

[JPope]

[quote name='///' post='88991' date='Dec 14 2010, 12:42 AM']Ok I got one more thing to add anyway <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':crazy:' />. I love that this guy claims AKB48 has sort of toned down the overt sexuality of Onyanko Club. Clearly he hasn't seen my favorite AKB48 song! (JPope, this is BOUNCEBACK-produced and basically in the "loli-sexy-synthpop" style of SweetS, specifically it's basically Lonesome Cherry 2.0, so you might get a kick out of it): AKB48 誘惑のガーター Live



Notice the last line of that song... This is why I can't REALLY be a fan. Can't listen to that without headphones, can I? <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />[/quote]



Wow. Just wow. I could totally imagine SweetS doing that song. Until the last line. WT fucking F?

[eri]

AKB48 誘惑のガーター Live

WT fucking F?

My face in real life is sort of a cross between <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /pouty.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dammit:' /> and <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... prised.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dammit:' /> and <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... omgwtf.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':crazy:' /> and maybe some of <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /weeeh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />

[Haru]

[quote name='Al Kusanagi' post='89042' date='Dec 14 2010, 05:18 PM']Hey Adachi, what about them AKB girls?







Thanks bro.[/quote]



/thread



And Eri, you're talking about the "Heavy Rotation" PV. Those weren't bikinis; but rather seriously slutty underwear.

If I had any respect for AKB and Yasushi, it completely went out the window with that video. That was nothing more but cashing in on the wota.

[Pflaume]

<img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />



I rest my case.

[Ap2000]

[quote name='JPope' post='89104' date='Dec 15 2010, 05:42 PM']Until the last line.[/quote]



What does it say ?



EDIT:

Found the lyrics on google.

[Hana]

[quote name='///' post='88991' date='Dec 13 2010, 09:42 PM']Ok I got one more thing to add anyway <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />. I love that this guy claims AKB48 has sort of toned down the overt sexuality of Onyanko Club. Clearly he hasn't seen my favorite AKB48 song! (JPope, this is BOUNCEBACK-produced and basically in the "loli-sexy-synthpop" style of SweetS, specifically it's basically Lonesome Cherry 2.0, so you might get a kick out of it): AKB48 誘惑のガーター Live[/quote]

You'd have a great argument if not for one thing: It's not an AKB song, but rather one by their sister group, SDN48. The three performing it in that video *are* AKB members (it was a shuffle concert), but all of them are over 20, just like the members of SDN. Everything else aside they're doing a disservice by having AKB members perform SDN songs because the SDN members (at least the first generation) are more talented, but whatever.



tl;dr: Do your research next time. I hate having to log back in here just to clarify when you guys get this shit wrong.

[eri]

[quote name='Hana' post='89128' date='Dec 15 2010, 10:42 AM'][quote name='///' post='88991' date='Dec 13 2010, 09:42 PM']"loli-sexy-synthpop" stuff[/quote]

It's not an AKB song, but rather one by their sister group, SDN48. The three performing it in that video *are* AKB members (it was a shuffle concert), but all of them are over 20, just like the members of SDN. ...



tl;dr: Do your research next time. I hate having to log back in here just to clarify when you guys get this shit wrong.

[/quote]



Are the french fries in a Happy Meal somehow different than the french fries on the regular McDonalds Meal? Only very very very slightly in terms of packaging and the target consumer. Otherwise, it is the same unhealthy, glorious crap.



Put another way, imo , pointing out the differences between AKB and a subgroup of AKB is like trying to defend the childishness of H!P by saying MiniMoni's "Telephone RingRingRing" is wildly different from Morning Musume's "The Peace."

Are they slightly more childish? Yes. Were they a wildly distinct group (in members, style, song, etc) from the rest of H!P at the time? No.

Do you think most people differentiate between Morning Musume proper and their 1203910831098 splinter groups? I don't think so. Actually, a better analogy would be with Biyuuden, "the sexy group." Even fans who DO know the various members, subgroups, shuffle units, and such do not set Biyuuden in some isolated universe from H!P. Half of the people on this fan board still don't bother with the names of the H!P Kids.



Curious, do you think most people differentiate between AKB48 proper and their 1098310298310 splinter groups? I don't know - I'm leaning towards "no." If someone saw this performance, would they say "oh, this is not sexually problematic at all because that anonymous 20 year old idol is part of NAACP48, NASA24/7 and TeamQ and she is clearly distinct from the 17 year old idol in the same outfit who is part of LOL99 and CVS200 and A-Team." Doubt it.



And does it even matter what the group differences are when members and songs are swapped around in concerts all the time?



Edit: Not trying to be mean about this or say AKB is more anonymous than H!P. I'm just saying we're missing the forest for the trees. AKB OVERALL has (seems to have?) a certain image, just as H!P OVERALL has a certain image.

[Hana]

But if I'm getting what you're saying, you're saying that since MOST PEOPLE wouldn't differentiate between groups, then there's no point for anyone to do so? That's sort of like saying all Hispanics/Latinos have the same culture because they're all Hispanics/Latinos, and we don't need to differentiate between countries because most people wouldn't.



Personally, I look at the different groups and I *do* see a difference (Teams A, K, and B are all different from each other in terms of image, and even stage songs, and then SDN is a completely different thing all together because they're supposed to be an adult group), but I'm also a fan and as a result have actually taken the time to find those differences, rather than brushing it off as them all being the same, just like an H!P fan would look at Biyuuden vs C-ute, or C-ute vs Berryz or etc, etc, etc.



But I suspect I'm fighting a losing battle since I know which board I'm on. *shrug* You all will think what you wanna think, and since most of you think that AKB are either whores or abused, I doubt there's much I can say to try and argue that I think that they aren't. Although, I will say that I personally think the analysis from the first post of the Heavy Rotation and Beginner (original version) videos is too literal.



Anyway, feel free to go back to your regular AKB bashing. *shrug*

[tsukinobyouin]

[quote name='Hana' post='89128' date='Dec 15 2010, 01:42 PM']I hate having to log back in here just to clarify when you guys get this shit wrong.[/quote]



Wow, this in and of itself is quite pathetic. I can't imagine going out of my way to visit a board that I don't normally want to be logged in just to correct the injustice of someone saying something incorrect about H!P.

[surasshu]

Uhm, what exactly is my argument that gets nullified by it being SND48 or whatever? <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />



That's my favorite song from all I've heard of AKB48/subgroups/spinoffs, basically, and it still has... uh, issues, for me. That may not ring true for everyone (though clearly I'm not completely alone), but that song is a microcosm of my problems with the AKB48 "universe" as a whole. The age isn't really my problem in general, I just find it hard to listen to, and the performance hard to watch (which is why I picked a concert version). This is basically not how I like my idols, is all I'm sayin'.



And yeah I think most people wouldn't see AKB as individual units, or for that matter, even as individuals at all. It's a giant mob of units, songs, performances, pictures, books, and so on. They leave a generic impression and I have some issues with it, despite their occasional awesome song or good-looking member, and I can't get myself to be into it. But for others that may not be true, and I certainly don't begrudge anyone enjoyment of AKB48! In fact if anything, I'm jealous. (And H!P does have a generic flavor as well, no matter how you look at it. Fast food analogies are pretty good for idol pop actually. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' /> )



Though, admittedly, since I'm not into AKB48 so I might certainly be missing some subtleties. I did listen a lot to the first three or so albums and even watched some concerts, though. I would like to think I gave them more than a fair shot.

[eri]

Latino groups are changing and elusive cultural and ethic categories that span multiple countries.

Idols are highly produced, controlled consumer products that fill in a very specific market niche. The analogy doesn't make sense.



[quote name='Hana' post='89134' date='Dec 15 2010, 12:29 PM']Personally, I look at the different groups[/quote]



Yes, but we're not talking about what you personally do. I personally acknowledge differences in H!P groups too. However, I don't think that the marketing powers that be AND the general populace are as generous to note how C-ute is wildly distinct from Berryz. This is not "brushing it off" - it is common sense. Again, you're missing the forest for the trees.



The original discussion was about why K-idols are so popular right now when Japan is already dominated by 2 idol companies: H!P and AKB. The question then became, what might K-idols offer to consumers that is somehow different from what H!P and AKB offer. This is how we came to talk about the very different images that H!P and AKB project, despite being highly similar idol groups. Since we cannot speculate what people in Japan think, we're just giving our personal impressions of each groups' image.



[quote name='Hana' post='89134' date='Dec 15 2010, 12:29 PM']But I suspect I'm fighting a losing battle since I know which board I'm on. *shrug*

Anyway, feel free to go back to your regular AKB bashing. *shrug*[/quote]

Owning up to the marketing of AKB girls as more sexy is not bashing nor is it some affront to your personal tastes. Did you read all of the posts in this thread or the parent thread? Many many people do not take that position. And even if they do, people have been saying it is their PERSONAL reaction and not a universal truth.



Don't know why you're so bitter about all this.

[Cyrene]

I think it's cute the hate that everyone has for AKB48 here. The video that you showed was for a group (SDN48) that is made up of 20 years and older members and yeah, the ones in that video aren't over 20, but they sure are legal.



Heavy Rotation, while "slutty", isn't any less creepy than 6th gen running around in Bikinis when they first joined and doing blowing tests and stuff like that. It was directed by a woman (gasp) and the lyrics aren't even creepy. I actually thought that it was well done and colorful. And fun! When was the last time MM/H!P had a seriously fun video that you could watch all the way through without being absolutely bored. If you're going to put that SDN song up there, how about this blatantly sexual MKB pv? Everyone in lingerie in Hebirote was 18+, the only one who wasn't was Jurina (in the bathtub, but I dislike her anyways).



I admit somethings were weird and I got a bit disappointed that Kurumi to Dialogue (Team A's b-side to the newest single) seemed to be about "becoming an adult" (aka losing your virginity), but it's still well sung and the PV is pretty good. I take the kind of ehhh things with the great (Heavy Rotation is a great song).



Also, about Beginner: did you watch the whole thing? Atsuko is screaming like a banshee because, uh, she got stabbed in the game and it crossed into real life. Plot in a pv?! What's that?



It's quite clear to me that AKB48 sure isn't just for wota anymore, when even non-popular members singing a non-slutty song can sell 500k. It's a shame MM can't do that anymore, that's for sure.



/opinion



(Also, I seemed to somehow miss Hana's talk because my browser is weird. So sorry for repeating some of the same things.)

[eri]

[quote name='Cyrene' post='89160' date='Dec 15 2010, 12:48 PM']I think it's cute the hate that everyone has for AKB48 here.[/quote]



[quote name='eri' post='89151' date='Dec 15 2010, 12:06 PM']Owning up to the marketing of AKB girls as more sexy is not bashing nor is it some affront to your personal tastes. Did you read all of the posts in this thread or the parent thread? Many many people do not take that position. And even if they do, people have been saying it is their PERSONAL reaction and not a universal truth.



Don't know why you're so bitter about all this.[/quote]

x2



No need for people to get angry over this. No one is bashing, no one is hating.

[aine]

[quote name='Hana' post='89128' date='Dec 15 2010, 06:42 PM']I hate having to log back in here just to clarify when you guys get this shit wrong.[/quote][quote name='Hana' post='89134' date='Dec 15 2010, 07:29 PM']But I suspect I'm fighting a losing battle since I know which board I'm on. *shrug*

Anyway, feel free to go back to your regular AKB bashing. *shrug*[/quote]

Hey Hana, I'm not up to date with the latest developments and only remember you from back when you were a valued BBS member and things were simple and pretty, so I just wanted to ask - what the hell has gotten into you. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... >/nono.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />





This is regardless of this whole discussion to which I have little to contribute, but which is interesting so carry it on. As long as you don't do it or take it personally. Come on, we should all know better than that, right?