Oh, I know. I'm just putting in my 2¢ wrt Reina and why some people might not like her singing. I wouldn't put her in with the worst singers in H!P, either -- I'd probably rate her in the upper-middle tier were I to do a comprehensive list -- but I've seen some ridiculous gushing over her voice online.
As far as her lack of progress from her early days, it's possible that her voice coach is to blame, but it's also possible that she simply never committed to improving since she was already a competent singer -- good enough to be getting regular lines from the beginning. Do each of the girls have different voice instructors, or is it the same for all of them? If it's the same for all of them, how did Risa improve so much while Reina plateaued so early on? If they have different instructors, then you might be on to something.
Best and Worst Singers in H!P's History?
Moderators: testacles_4, Shoujo Q, momoirosaya
Re: Best and Worst Singers in H!P's History?
Reina at her best >>> Risa, imo.
Reina is a very lazy singer and she often uses poor technique despite being able to sing a lot better, so a lot of people think that she's worse than she is. And it's understandable. But she's shown plenty of times that she is perfect capable of producing a rich, resonant tone that most of the girls never achieve. She's far from perfect (I think it's ridiculous when people say she's amazing). She tends to sing with a lowered soft palate which gives her a slightly nasally quality, but it's what their instructors encourage them to do (Sakura does it all the time). Despite her flaws, I'd still put her fairly high in a singing ranking.
Risa, though... I like her voice, and how much attitude she has, but I can only listen to her in small amounts, lol. Her singing often sounds very strained or forced-sounding and too thick/heavy, she runs out of air very quickly, and she often has poor releases. She sounds like she's over-compressing the vocal folds, and using too much breath pressure to force the folds apart, which can cause her larynx to rise. It's very tiring to listen to.
Reina is a very lazy singer and she often uses poor technique despite being able to sing a lot better, so a lot of people think that she's worse than she is. And it's understandable. But she's shown plenty of times that she is perfect capable of producing a rich, resonant tone that most of the girls never achieve. She's far from perfect (I think it's ridiculous when people say she's amazing). She tends to sing with a lowered soft palate which gives her a slightly nasally quality, but it's what their instructors encourage them to do (Sakura does it all the time). Despite her flaws, I'd still put her fairly high in a singing ranking.
Risa, though... I like her voice, and how much attitude she has, but I can only listen to her in small amounts, lol. Her singing often sounds very strained or forced-sounding and too thick/heavy, she runs out of air very quickly, and she often has poor releases. She sounds like she's over-compressing the vocal folds, and using too much breath pressure to force the folds apart, which can cause her larynx to rise. It's very tiring to listen to.
Last edited by Banana on Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Best and Worst Singers in H!P's History?
I know nothing of singing technique but I think Reina's voice right now and at the end of her MM career is so beautiful to listen too. It is not squeaky (sometimes maybe it is), not rough, not trembling, not nasal, not out of breath. It's the smoothness in her voice that I love. Riho's voice has strength but it's so rough she can't even sing a balad well because she can't make it smooth between the notes. Not many girls in H!P can sing so smoothly like Reina. Currently in H!P there is Karin maybe, but Reina is on a completely different level. And Reina can sing high notes beautifully and much less squeaky than Karin's high notes.
And I don't understand why many people say Tomoko is a good singer. Her transition between notes is not smooth at all, her voice is nasal. When she sings only a few solos she sounds perfect, but when she handles a song by herself all the flaws show up.
And I don't understand why many people say Tomoko is a good singer. Her transition between notes is not smooth at all, her voice is nasal. When she sings only a few solos she sounds perfect, but when she handles a song by herself all the flaws show up.
Last edited by smtmissin on Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Best and Worst Singers in H!P's History?
I'm going to have to agree with Banana on the Reina >>> Risa front. This is a pretty unbiased opinion too, considering I can't stand either of their voices. Reina may have a squeakier, higher toned voice than Risa but Risa is incredibly messy live. Constant pitch issues, voice cracks, etc. Most of which could be easily avoided if she weren't doing that bizarre, put-on growly man voice most of the time. Risa is also almost perpetually out of breath. She was born with a nicer tone than Reina for sure, but has little to no skill in controlling her voice so it's pretty much wasted (much like Reina's decentish technique is wasted on someone with an obnoxious helium voice). When Reina actually bothers to try and sound good, she has far more versatility and vocal agility than Risa, who is pretty much always forcing and squeezing. It's a shame, honestly.
I would put Reina in pretty much the same category as my all-time H!P bias - Goto Maki. They both do the best they can with what they have, but that will never change the fact that they didn't really start with any amazing natural talent. They figured out how to sound good singing idol songs, but their lack of ability becomes very apparent once they sing something more demanding. I would also put Takahashi in this category. There's really nothing wrong with that - everyone can not be a virtuoso. There's something to be said for mastering at least one thing, even if that thing is "idol singing". It doesn't mean they can't sing, it just means they're going to pale in comparison to other artists who have basically devoted their life to being the best singer they can be.
I would put Reina in pretty much the same category as my all-time H!P bias - Goto Maki. They both do the best they can with what they have, but that will never change the fact that they didn't really start with any amazing natural talent. They figured out how to sound good singing idol songs, but their lack of ability becomes very apparent once they sing something more demanding. I would also put Takahashi in this category. There's really nothing wrong with that - everyone can not be a virtuoso. There's something to be said for mastering at least one thing, even if that thing is "idol singing". It doesn't mean they can't sing, it just means they're going to pale in comparison to other artists who have basically devoted their life to being the best singer they can be.
Last edited by Farrah on Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Best and Worst Singers in H!P's History?
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Farrah" data-cid="183721" data-time="1423046286">
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I would put Reina in pretty much the same category as my all-time H!P bias - Goto Maki. They both do the best they can with what they have, but that will never change the fact that they didn't really start with any amazing natural talent. They figured out how to sound good singing idol songs, but their lack of ability becomes very apparent once they sing something more demanding. I would also put Takahashi in this category. There's really nothing wrong with that - everyone can not be a virtuoso. There's something to be said for mastering at least one thing, even if that thing is "idol singing". It doesn't mean they can't sing, it just means they're going to pale in comparison to other artists who have basically devoted their life to being the best singer they can be.
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</blockquote>
I can't argue with that too much. I think all of the girls we're talking about here -- Reina, Risa, Takahashi, Maki -- are pretty close overall, and people will like one over the other for purely subjective reasons. I do think that of the four, though, Risa had the least ability right out of the gate, and improved the most over the years. The other three were already fairly competent singers for idol music, and I think that might have been what held them back from improving more than they might have had they felt a need to. Takahashi, in particular, should have become a legitimately very good singer based on where she started, it seems to me. I've always felt that she plateaued after a few years, and actually regressed a bit after that. I remember watching some of the later MM lives and thinking, "damn, Ai used to be a better singer. Why isn't she better than she is now?"
<div>
I would put Reina in pretty much the same category as my all-time H!P bias - Goto Maki. They both do the best they can with what they have, but that will never change the fact that they didn't really start with any amazing natural talent. They figured out how to sound good singing idol songs, but their lack of ability becomes very apparent once they sing something more demanding. I would also put Takahashi in this category. There's really nothing wrong with that - everyone can not be a virtuoso. There's something to be said for mastering at least one thing, even if that thing is "idol singing". It doesn't mean they can't sing, it just means they're going to pale in comparison to other artists who have basically devoted their life to being the best singer they can be.
</div>
</blockquote>
I can't argue with that too much. I think all of the girls we're talking about here -- Reina, Risa, Takahashi, Maki -- are pretty close overall, and people will like one over the other for purely subjective reasons. I do think that of the four, though, Risa had the least ability right out of the gate, and improved the most over the years. The other three were already fairly competent singers for idol music, and I think that might have been what held them back from improving more than they might have had they felt a need to. Takahashi, in particular, should have become a legitimately very good singer based on where she started, it seems to me. I've always felt that she plateaued after a few years, and actually regressed a bit after that. I remember watching some of the later MM lives and thinking, "damn, Ai used to be a better singer. Why isn't she better than she is now?"
Last edited by JPope on Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jpope On Jpop! blog
Re: Best and Worst Singers in H!P's History?
As they get older, it looks like they get lessons less, which might play into it. Fukuda Kanon mentioned on her blog that she hardly has vocal coaching anymore.
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Re: Best and Worst Singers in H!P's History?
That's a pity. They should all have an hour of training every day.
Jpope On Jpop! blog
Re: Best and Worst Singers in H!P's History?
I'm guessing the petering off in lessons has more to do with the teachers having less to teach after a while... There's probably only so much they can teach given what most idol songs demand vocally, so the "better" H!P singers have probably just exhausted what H!P can do for them.
Re: Best and Worst Singers in H!P's History?
Maybe. Unfortunately I haven't seen any other girls who have been around for awhile specifically say they don't go anymore (some of them occasionally mention having lessons) so Kanon's is the only one to really go by.
I always got the impression that the younger girls weren't doing it once a day either. It seemed more like a weekly thing?
I always got the impression that the younger girls weren't doing it once a day either. It seemed more like a weekly thing?
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Re: Best and Worst Singers in H!P's History?
[quote="JPope"]
As far as her lack of progress from her early days, it's possible that her voice coach is to blame, but it's also possible that she simply never committed to improving since she was already a competent singer -- good enough to be getting regular lines from the beginning. Do each of the girls have different voice instructors, or is it the same for all of them? If it's the same for all of them, how did Risa improve so much while Reina plateaued so early on? If they have different instructors, then you might be on to something.
[/quote]
I totally forgot about this, but on her graduation DVD, Reina said that she hadn't had any proper vocal lessons since her debut. (There's a video of Reina getting some training in 2005, but I guess that was just something they did for the show, not something that was regularly going on.)
As far as her lack of progress from her early days, it's possible that her voice coach is to blame, but it's also possible that she simply never committed to improving since she was already a competent singer -- good enough to be getting regular lines from the beginning. Do each of the girls have different voice instructors, or is it the same for all of them? If it's the same for all of them, how did Risa improve so much while Reina plateaued so early on? If they have different instructors, then you might be on to something.
[/quote]
I totally forgot about this, but on her graduation DVD, Reina said that she hadn't had any proper vocal lessons since her debut. (There's a video of Reina getting some training in 2005, but I guess that was just something they did for the show, not something that was regularly going on.)
Last edited by Banana on Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Best and Worst Singers in H!P's History?
That's amazing to me. I get that idols are more than just singers and dancers, but it is their primary job. Without the music, they're just gravure models, and quick frankly of no interest to me.
Jpope On Jpop! blog
Re: Best and Worst Singers in H!P's History?
To be honest, I get it. Once you get to a certain point, lessons become a little superfluous. You know all the warm ups, you've learned all the basic techniques that can be applied to pop style singing, etc. I stopped taking lessons when I was 19 because A) they became too expensive because my family was having money issues, but also B) since I didn't have any plans of singing with symphonies or pursuing an opera career anytime soon, I just didn't need them anymore. I'm willing to bet most of the established pros like Koda Kumi, Nakashima Mika, Kuraki Mai, Utada Hikaru etc probably don't take lessons either unless they've been on hiatus for a while and want to get the gears moistened again. When I hear of most pros taking vocal lessons, it's usually right before going on tour just to make sure everything is still working the way it needs to work for them not to totally eviscerate their vocal chords on the road. Like a refresher course.
I don't expect a 20+ year old woman to still be taking weekly lessons. What does surprise me however is the fact that the younger girls whose voices are still developing don't get them much, either. That seems like a terrible waste of resources to me. Sometimes I wonder just how great Airi could have become had she ended up under Avex or something, where she would have been encouraged to push herself in terms of vocals and dance. The H!P vocal coaches are absolutely horrible so I'm not sure how much she would have learned even if she still took coaching. I frequently wonder where/how any of them got their degrees because every clip I've seen of their instruction is teaching terrible, terrible technique. The way they allow Riho to go out and scream her brains out with horrible technique is perfectly indicative of how few fucks these idol companies give about preserving their idol's voices. If Takahashi had to get vocal nodule removal surgery a year or two ago, imagine how soon Riho will probably need it. Her voice doesn't crack as much as it used to but she's still literally yelling all of her higher notes.
I don't expect a 20+ year old woman to still be taking weekly lessons. What does surprise me however is the fact that the younger girls whose voices are still developing don't get them much, either. That seems like a terrible waste of resources to me. Sometimes I wonder just how great Airi could have become had she ended up under Avex or something, where she would have been encouraged to push herself in terms of vocals and dance. The H!P vocal coaches are absolutely horrible so I'm not sure how much she would have learned even if she still took coaching. I frequently wonder where/how any of them got their degrees because every clip I've seen of their instruction is teaching terrible, terrible technique. The way they allow Riho to go out and scream her brains out with horrible technique is perfectly indicative of how few fucks these idol companies give about preserving their idol's voices. If Takahashi had to get vocal nodule removal surgery a year or two ago, imagine how soon Riho will probably need it. Her voice doesn't crack as much as it used to but she's still literally yelling all of her higher notes.
Last edited by Farrah on Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Best and Worst Singers in H!P's History?
[quote="Farrah"]
I don't expect a 20+ year old woman to still be taking weekly lessons. What does surprise me however is the fact that the younger girls whose voices are still developing don't get them much, either. That seems like a terrible waste of resources to me. Sometimes I wonder just how great Airi could have become had she ended up under Avex or something, where she would have been encouraged to push herself in terms of vocals and dance. The H!P vocal coaches are absolutely horrible so I'm not sure how much she would have learned even if she still took coaching. I frequently wonder where/how any of them got their degrees because every clip I've seen of their instruction is teaching terrible, terrible technique. The way they allow Riho to go out and scream her brains out with horrible technique is perfectly indicative of how few fucks these idol companies give about preserving their idol's voices. If Takahashi had to get vocal nodule removal surgery a year or two ago, imagine how soon Riho will probably need it. Her voice doesn't crack as much as it used to but she's still literally yelling all of her higher notes.
[/quote]
This is what I was getting at. These are young girls, most of whom are still learning how to sing on the job, and their management doesn't seem to care much about developing them as singers.
I don't expect a 20+ year old woman to still be taking weekly lessons. What does surprise me however is the fact that the younger girls whose voices are still developing don't get them much, either. That seems like a terrible waste of resources to me. Sometimes I wonder just how great Airi could have become had she ended up under Avex or something, where she would have been encouraged to push herself in terms of vocals and dance. The H!P vocal coaches are absolutely horrible so I'm not sure how much she would have learned even if she still took coaching. I frequently wonder where/how any of them got their degrees because every clip I've seen of their instruction is teaching terrible, terrible technique. The way they allow Riho to go out and scream her brains out with horrible technique is perfectly indicative of how few fucks these idol companies give about preserving their idol's voices. If Takahashi had to get vocal nodule removal surgery a year or two ago, imagine how soon Riho will probably need it. Her voice doesn't crack as much as it used to but she's still literally yelling all of her higher notes.
[/quote]
This is what I was getting at. These are young girls, most of whom are still learning how to sing on the job, and their management doesn't seem to care much about developing them as singers.
Jpope On Jpop! blog