The Book

We listen to stuff outside of H!P? What?!?

Moderator: tsukinobyouin

Post Reply
User avatar
Melon
ANGERME
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:40 pm

The Book

Post by Melon »

Discuss the book here. I'm not going to have a chance to really bite into it until tomorrow. But for discussion purposes:



Should we divide it into readings like college, and structure it by chapters and/or units? Or should we just jump in and make mention of what chapter we're reading? Should one of us make a point to ask leading questions?



lulz Idol Academy BBS. Get yer idol degree here! It accredited and as a single class it's worth 4 hours as sociology elective.
Image
User avatar
Ap2000
つんく♂
Posts: 9525
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:43 am

Re: The Book

Post by Ap2000 »

I probably won't start reading it until next Wednesday, when I'm on a 6~7h long train.

The great thing is, I actually found it in our institute's library, so I'm just going to borrow it over the winter holidays. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... nceman.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':danceman:' />
Last edited by Ap2000 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
showraniy
ANGERME
Posts: 2921
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:53 am

Re: The Book

Post by showraniy »

I'm on the first chapter, nowhere significant yet. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... hawhaw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hawhaw:' />



But as someone who doesn't understand a lot about AKB, this shit is just like taking a college course.
User avatar
Madara
ANGERME
Posts: 3104
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:33 pm

Re: The Book

Post by Madara »

Oh, come on! I don't do cryptic very well. What friggin' book??!!!
User avatar
Melon
ANGERME
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:40 pm

Re: The Book

Post by Melon »

[quote name='Madara' timestamp='1355328596' post='139367']

Oh, come on! I don't do cryptic very well. What friggin' book??!!!

[/quote]



This is where I mention that I've always told you to read the board/threads. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... >/rofl.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rofl:' />



I've read a bit, and some of it is what I know, but it's interesting to see how it's phrased academically. There's also a lot I don't know lol



If I taught a class using this book I would so go School of Rock on that shizzz.
Last edited by Melon on Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
AEUGNewtype
ANGERME
Posts: 1296
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:06 pm

Re: The Book

Post by AEUGNewtype »

Brian, I've been passing out a book for everyone to read, its a college-level book about idols in Japan and how they fit into and affect the Japanese media in general and how the idol industry and Japanese media at large operates as a business. It goes into a lot of factual history of the industry as many psychological and socioeconomic studies of the fans themselves. If you can read e-books, I can send you a copy, but the book itself is quite expensive to buy, even in e-book format (about $70) Let me know if you want one, this is easily the best English language piece of material I've ever seen about idols and I've been following idols and looking for material for about 12 years now.



Also, as for discussion, I'd suggest if there are any particular points you find interesting, just post a blurb about it here. My iPad app that I read e-books with has a function where you can highlight things and come back to them at any time, so I highlighted some of the best points of discussion I came across. I already knew a large amount of the facts (though not all) that the book presents since I've been following and studying idols for so long, but even if there's some facts you guys weren't very aware of, bring them up too. The book also presents some great theories, and they did some fantastic research for the purpose of the book over a period of about 10 years, so their research was quite telling in many ways as well as sometimes just confirmatory of the amassed knowledge and research I had already done on the subject. The chapters themselves are huge and cover a really large amount of material, so it'd be better to discuss on specific points, I think.



I also have a few other (quite good, and mostly academic) books about the Japanese music industry and media that I can share after we've run the gamut on this one, but this is by far the most informative and pertinent one of the bunch that I have so far, since we are on a BBS about idols and idols are my favorite part of the Japanese music industry as a whole, even though I like lots of other things as well.



I have also discussed some of these points in threads on another BBS, so I can pull over some of my posts from there to discuss here as well.
Last edited by AEUGNewtype on Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Madara
ANGERME
Posts: 3104
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:33 pm

Re: The Book

Post by Madara »

E-books! I only just bought an iPod! (And my nephew told me it was already obsolete.) How much new technology can my frail 20th Century sensibilities take? <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... wheely.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wheely:' />
Last edited by Madara on Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
AEUGNewtype
ANGERME
Posts: 1296
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:06 pm

Re: The Book

Post by AEUGNewtype »

[quote name='Madara' timestamp='1355331522' post='139375']

E-books! I only just bought an iPod! (And my nephew told me it was already obsolete.) How much new technology can my frail 20th Century sensibilities take? <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... wheely.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wheely:' />

[/quote]

Well, technically if its an iPod touch, you would be able to actually read the book on there! Though it might hurt your eyes.. But if someone claimed it "obsolete" then it was probably an iPod classic :(
User avatar
Melon
ANGERME
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:40 pm

Re: The Book

Post by Melon »

Don't diss the classic! I have two and if they ever discontinue it I'll have four!!
Image
User avatar
Kalle
カントリー・ガールズ
Posts: 400
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:15 pm

Re: The Book

Post by Kalle »

Huh, that actually sounds like an interesting read :Y Is it okay for me to ask for a copy too, AEUG? I'm pretty sure I can use my iPhone for it ...
Last edited by Kalle on Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
<p style="text-align:center;">Image
User avatar
Ap2000
つんく♂
Posts: 9525
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:43 am

Re: The Book

Post by Ap2000 »

[quote name='Kalle' timestamp='1355359285' post='139413']

Huh, that actually sounds like an interesting read :Y Is it okay for me to ask for a copy too, AUG? I'm pretty sure I can use my iPhone for it ...

[/quote]



An AUG is an Austrian rifle, actually. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... stling.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':whistling:' />
Last edited by Ap2000 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Kalle
カントリー・ガールズ
Posts: 400
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:15 pm

Re: The Book

Post by Kalle »

[quote name='Ap2000' timestamp='1355359484' post='139414']

[quote name='Kalle' timestamp='1355359285' post='139413']

Huh, that actually sounds like an interesting read :Y Is it okay for me to ask for a copy too, AUG? I'm pretty sure I can use my iPhone for it ...

[/quote]



An AUG is an Austrian rifle, actually. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... stling.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':whistling:' />

[/quote]



But which variant is he?!

man I could've sworn I hit the E key oops
<p style="text-align:center;">Image
User avatar
Gerald
ANGERME
Posts: 1840
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:07 pm

Re: The Book

Post by Gerald »

Guess who has very little idea what is going on <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... unsure.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':unsure:' />, but the book sounds interesting. I would be interested in a copy AEUG but if you are getting too many requests, don't worry <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... umbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' />.



I've got a Kindle, iPod and Android tablet, should work on something!
User avatar
NekoKaiSai
ANGERME
Posts: 2303
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:10 pm

Re: The Book

Post by NekoKaiSai »

Thank you AEUG for the copy and Ap for a way to read it. The book said that idols couldn't/weren't supposed to drink alcohol, yet in H!P once you're 20 no one cares, is this something unique to H!P?
<p class="bbc_center">Image
<p class="bbc_center" style="text-align:left;">B!P workflow spreadsheet         Tutorial for Translators/Preppers
User avatar
kitaoji
カントリー・ガールズ
Posts: 414
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:43 am

Re: The Book

Post by kitaoji »

Japanese law states that minors may not consume alcohol and smoke, and the age of majority is twenty. That explains why Kago got the boot (or at least, a suspension) for breaking it twice and some Johnny's getting suspended/leaving the jimusho.



It's bad enough to do something "un-idolly", but given how much emphasis is placed on them to be upstanding citizens, doing something illegal is usually sufficient grounds for a suspension.
User avatar
NekoKaiSai
ANGERME
Posts: 2303
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:10 pm

Re: The Book

Post by NekoKaiSai »

You completely missed the meaning of my post. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... unsure.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':unsure:' /> I'm aware of all that you said, but the book said that idols weren't allowed to drink alcohol, smoke, or be seen with boys (that's lazy wording on my part), and while Kago's the only H!P member who, to my knowledge, has ever been caught smoking she was only 18, so it was illegal. But at the very least Ai and Risa drank while they were still H!P members, so H!P clearly doesn't have a problem with it and neither do the wota, so do other agencies not allow their idols to drink even once they're 20?
<p class="bbc_center">Image
<p class="bbc_center" style="text-align:left;">B!P workflow spreadsheet         Tutorial for Translators/Preppers
User avatar
AEUGNewtype
ANGERME
Posts: 1296
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:06 pm

Re: The Book

Post by AEUGNewtype »

Alcohol isn't looked that well upon unless they girls are absolutely of age. There are pictures of the older AKB members drinking on their blogs all the time, even with staff members sometimes or Aki-P himself, it really depends on the age. I've also seen and heard of members from H!P, Idoling!!! and a few other idol groups drinking, but only the older girls, and some of the idols groups out there don't even have girls old enough to drink in the entire group. Maybe some agencies are more strict about it than others, but in general, its not a big deal if they're over 20. They can't present themselves as drunkards or something, but I see blog posts all over the place of idols from different agencies who are over the legal age drinking. They maybe should have clarified that it is more specifically the illegality of the younger girls doing it (since honestly, 80% of idols are under 20 while they're still employed as a "youthful" idol) that is a taboo. Drinking is kind of a standard of Japanese culture and just thought of as a celebratory thing in most cases (unlike Americans where getting drunk usually just means getting out of control and being associated with other bad things,) and while smoking is also a widespread problem in Japan, it is more accepted as hazardous to your health to them, so smoking, even if you're of age is looked down upon a lot more.
Last edited by AEUGNewtype on Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
AEUGNewtype
ANGERME
Posts: 1296
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:06 pm

Re: The Book

Post by AEUGNewtype »

I just found a few other extremely interesting pieces written about business in Japan by people who have actually lived and worked at some of the biggest companies in the country, and it relates to a lot of what we've been discussing and is a really strong companion piece to the Idols and Celebrity book. This is pertaining to the former CEO of Olympus camera company, whose scandal in 2011 is one of the biggest in Japanese business history. It shows a lot about what state Japan's economy is really in and how business is really conducted there for most major corporations.

 

Check out this article:

 

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/fl20121202x1.html

 

And I also got the book that Woodford wrote, and plan to start reading soon.  The article is fairly long, but these are some of the most important parts of the article to me:

 
After demanding answers from the board over the payments — "they just didn't want to turn over those stones," he explains, Woodford was fired in October 2011 on the grounds that "he couldn't understand Japanese management style and was acting arbitrarily and peremptorily." He fled his adopted home in Tokyo in fear of his life amid rumors of yakuza involvement in the scandal.
So how can top management in Japan be improved in your view?

You're talking about huge social change. I think you need a very strong leader. The status quo in Japan has to be broken. My politics are left-wing, but with (nationalists) Shintaro Ishihara and Toru Hashimoto going together (in this month's general election), part of me thinks it's whatever it takes — left-wing or right-wing — to get Japan to function in a better way.

Do you think that's a realistic possibility?

The likelihood is that it probably will carry on like this and all that will happen is that the living standards of the Japanese will go down into a terrible, terrible place.

At the moment the restaurants are busy, everyone's fine; it's all okay. But remember, the country is on borrowed money. It's pumping money into all its wonderful projects and pensions and healthcare — but if that 235 percent figure (Japan's public debt is 235 percent of its annual gross domestic product, the highest percentage of any nation in the world) keeps on going up ... .

I hear the arguments that Japan doesn't have to tap the world capital markets because domestic savings are so high, but Japanese citizens are at liberty to take their savings offshore. Japan would then run out of money in a matter of weeks.

I advise some of the world's biggest financial firms on where and how they should position themselves in relation to Japan. There's so much interest in Japan but not for the right reasons.

I meet with people who are brilliant financial analysts and they will take me through many of Japan's largest companies and it's horrible. The banks lend huge amounts of money to indebted companies — but with no risk premium. That's why you're seeing credit-default swaps (tradeable insurance policies against default, whereby an investor pays a premium to another who, in return, pays up if the borrower defaults) shooting up for Japanese corporations.

 

Aren't the companies in Japan with more foreigners in their boardrooms actually the least successful?

This is the Keidanren (Japan's influential business lobby) and their mischievous nonsense. When this scandal appeared, Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda said that it was very unfortunate but Olympus does not represent corporate Japan, which operates under the same rules of capitalism as elsewhere. He was right to speak out. But what he said, with respect, is utterly wrong — totally wrong.
 
You ran a giant Japanese corporation and you met with politicians at the height of the Olympus scandal. Where do you think power ultimately lies in Japan?

In "the club" — the banks, the insurance companies. I don't think they're that powerful. I wouldn't be afraid of the banks. But at the moment there are moves to increase the banks' ability to become a shareholder in a company from the current 5 percent limit to 15 percent, which would be an utter disaster.

The reason they want to do that is that venture capital is not really a concept that is known in Japan, and there is a shortage of capital for those few examples of where people do want to invest. So to me, it seems you could do that, but after a company reaches a certain size, you certainly shouldn't do that because it would mean the banks could have a controlling interest.

The reason the banks want to do it is because the debt thing is going to get so bad they'll want to swap debt for equity, which will only make things worse. You've got to let things fail. Failure is part of capitalism.
What do you mean by the "perverted golf-club mentality"?

Their interest is the protection of the interests of the members. It's not about shareholder value or what's right or wrong even. And that was demonstrated graphically with what the shareholders did at Olympus — that couldn't have happened anywhere else in the world, as their own fiduciary duty would be questioned.

How could they not have made a clear statement after the stock price fell by 81 percent, with ¥7 billion written off (the value of the company)?

Aside from Olympus, look at the consumer-electronics companies in Japan compared to U.S.-based Apple or South Korea's Samsung. The top 40 technology companies in Japan add up to the market capitalization of Samsung now. We've seen Panasonic, Sharp and Sony have their debt ratings cut to junk status. Yet the banks are still lending to them. Those companies would be allowed to fail elsewhere. But in Japan there can be no failure in the system.
 
Regarding the pressure you were under at the height of the scandal, you said: "If I cracked, the family would go down with me." Did you ever hesitate before blowing the whistle?

No, never. I wasn't impetuous. I tried over a period of many weeks (to get answers from the company). I wrote six letters to the board in the most explicit terms. What surprised me was that you write those sorts of letters and you include a report from one of the big-four accounting firms totally condemning the $700 million in acquisition fees paid when Olympus bought three companies with no turnover for $1 billion — and any other board in the world, especially the outside directors, would say: "We have to do what Mr. Woodford's suggesting; we have to investigate this." But the 14 directors, three of whom were outside directors, were so blinded.

I don't think that attitude and approach would be any different across many companies in Japan — not the fraud but the complete and utter denial of reality.
 
Do you believe that Japan is a true free-market economy?

I don't believe in communism but it would probably work better in Japan than anywhere else. Other people have said the same. I don't think it's a free market. It's a distorted market.

Is that because the hand of the state looms large?

It's the hand of "the club." If you want to buy another company in Japan, let's just say it's one Japanese company wanting to buy another, it's almost impossible. There have been proxy fights. What you want is like Pac-Man, where a really strong company buys up the weak ones and makes them strong. That can't happen (because of takeover laws).

But you're touching all sorts of vested interests. [...] Structurally, Japan has got some of the worst — the worst — problems in the world.
 
Japan needs a non-violent French Revolution. It has to change its institutions. I remember talking about daylight-saving time to one of the ministries when I was in Japan, watching their reaction and listening to their platitudes of why it couldn't be done. It's like "Alice in Wonderland."

"We can't do it." There was no logic to the arguments.
 

 
In Japan, it seems to me that a pattern emerges after a major scandal or disaster. First, there is a cover-up and denials from the Establishment, and a lie is perpetrated by the media. Then there are protests by the public. But is there ever any justice?

 

I think in Olympus' case there is. You've got the whole board (moving aside) and people were arrested and indicted and those individuals, their own personal reputations are utterly ruined, aren't they? The problem is the behavior you just described — the denial.

The media is part of the problem as well in Japan. It's not at all aggressive and probing. The Japanese media started covering the Olympus scandal in a reasonable way — but only after the Western media had set the agenda and the FBI and the Serious Fraud Office here in Britain started investigating Olympus.

The Japanese media didn't actually investigate, they reported. Other Western media were investigating, tracking people down in Hong Kong, in Florida. They were speaking to non-executive directors, they were probing these Mickey Mouse companies, they were doing what good journalists do.

I was at a party in January with some of Japan's leading journalists. I asked one of them, who works for a national daily newspaper, what would have happened if I'd gone to them, if I'd passed the file (of internal documents) over to them?

The answer was that journalists would have loved to have reported it — but the editor would never allow them to. The story was too hot to handle. They said you don't attack a big Nikkei-listed company like that. You just don't do it.
 
How in your view can corporations in Japan be both ethical and profitable today?

I'd break away from the practice of promotion based on age. As soon as somebody's bright and positive, promote them young.

I think there's a huge thing that women can do in Japan. It's such a macho attitude — clubby. Half the graduates are women. Use your women. That has to change. There are so few women in middle management, let alone senior management. (The goal must be) to create a true meritocracy, to liberalize, to allow the bad companies to be taken over by the good companies — to allow failure, to control the banks and not let the Keidanren set the agenda.

The government should set the agenda. And ultimately it will come down to simple human nature and societal changes so that people become, hopefully, less blindly obedient and don't sleepwalk into oblivion — because that's what's happening at the moment.
 
One memorable exchange in the book is your encounter in August last year with Hisashi Mori, Olympus' executive vice president, when you challenged him over the Facta magazine article that broke the scandal. You ask him, "Mr. Mori, who do you work for?"

He said: "I work for Mr. (Tsuyoshi)Kikukawa (Olympus' chairman at the time of the scandal, who has since pleaded guilty to charges of falsifying accounts and faces up to 10 years in prison). I'm loyal to him."

What had you expected him to say?

I expected him to say: "I work for Olympus" — or, "I report to you, Michael." But I was pushing him and I knew by his answer then what the problem was.

The problem was not misplaced loyalty, it was a perversion of what loyalty is. It wouldn't have been if he had stood up and said this is why he did it, and that it was tobashi (a practice in which a company shifts investment losses from one subsidiary to another) — and said, "I'm sorry."

But he didn't. Instead, he tried to annihilate me; my wife was close to a nervous breakdown and he put the company through a protracted (episode). He looked after and fought for his own interest, himself.

The board of directors haven't got the ability — this is the scary thing — to think independently.

That doesn't apply to everyone in Japan. I think the management class and the engineering class is wonderful, but the senior executive general-management class is, in many organizations, disturbingly weak.
 
Would you class that as further evidence of what you termed the "perverted golf-club mentality" at work?

Well, the macro picture is Japan's national debt that's 235 percent (of gross national product) and climbing at a pace; its 800,000 less population every year; its population's longest life-expectancy in the civilized world; its lowest birthrate and highest number of unmarried women in their 30s — because they just don't want to have a salaryman coming home at 10 p.m. stinking of sake.

Is it going to get better? They've got two of their nuclear facilities working, the rest are not. They're importing huge amounts of fossil fuels. The tensions with China, you can just see the biggest trading partner coming out with: Buy anything but Japanese.[...] So, the country is inward-looking and dysfunctional and it's getting worse.
Last edited by AEUGNewtype on Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ap2000
つんく♂
Posts: 9525
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:43 am

Re: The Book

Post by Ap2000 »

Thanks for that, was interesting to read.
Last edited by Ap2000 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Madara
ANGERME
Posts: 3104
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:33 pm

Re: The Book

Post by Madara »

And they just put Shinzo Abe back as prime minister. That's what they call "change" in Japan.



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/world ... paper&_r=0



Sleepwalk to oblivion, indeed.
User avatar
Ap2000
つんく♂
Posts: 9525
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:43 am

Re: The Book

Post by Ap2000 »

[quote name='Madara' timestamp='1355841224' post='139731']

And they just put Shinzo Abe back as prime minister. That's what they call "change" in Japan.



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/world ... paper&_r=0



Sleepwalk to oblivion, indeed.

[/quote]



The Japanese politics is a rotten and foul system.
User avatar
Kalle
カントリー・ガールズ
Posts: 400
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:15 pm

Re: The Book

Post by Kalle »

In Japan, it seems to me that a pattern emerges after a major scandal or disaster. First, there is a cover-up and denials from the Establishment, and a lie is perpetrated by the media. Then there are protests by the public. But is there ever any justice?

 

I think in Olympus' case there is. You've got the whole board (moving aside) and people were arrested and indicted and those individuals, their own personal reputations are utterly ruined, aren't they? The problem is the behavior you just described — the denial.

The media is part of the problem as well in Japan. It's not at all aggressive and probing. The Japanese media started covering the Olympus scandal in a reasonable way — but only after the Western media had set the agenda and the FBI and the Serious Fraud Office here in Britain started investigating Olympus.

The Japanese media didn't actually investigate, they reported. Other Western media were investigating, tracking people down in Hong Kong, in Florida. They were speaking to non-executive directors, they were probing these Mickey Mouse companies, they were doing what good journalists do.

I was at a party in January with some of Japan's leading journalists. I asked one of them, who works for a national daily newspaper, what would have happened if I'd gone to them, if I'd passed the file (of internal documents) over to them?

The answer was that journalists would have loved to have reported it — but the editor would never allow them to. The story was too hot to handle. They said you don't attack a big Nikkei-listed company like that. You just don't do it.


This quote reminds me of this article about Johnny's and the influence they had on the media to supposedly cover up scandals within the agency ... it's from years ago, and I'm not sure how many of the allegations are real ( I don't follow those groups enough to care about them most of the time ) but it's kind of interesting to read through.
<p style="text-align:center;">Image
Post Reply