Idols and Morals and Stuff

We listen to stuff outside of H!P? What?!?

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JPope
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Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by JPope »

For those who are so disgusted by the no bf/gf rules of the Japanese pop idol industry, how do you justify your contribution to it's perpetuation via your fandom?
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by Wapiko »

I don't think the people here are so delusional to truly believe that the idols are virginal goddesses descended from heaven.



Sure hope not, anyway. I always thought we were slightly more rational over here.
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by JPope »

[quote name='Wapiko' timestamp='1359947423' post='143583']

I don't think the people here are so delusional to truly believe that the idols are virginal goddesses descended from heaven.



Sure hope not, anyway. I always thought we were slightly more rational over here.

[/quote]

The people my question is directed at are assumed to understand that idols are not as they are marketed to be. They are the most morally outraged at the reality of the industry. So why do they help perpetuate that which they find so morally repugnant by consuming the fruits of that which they find so objectionable?
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by Cyrene »

[quote name='JPope' timestamp='1359946799' post='143581']

For those who are so disgusted by the no bf/gf rules of the Japanese pop idol industry, how do you justify your contribution to it's perpetuation via your fandom?

[/quote]



Just because we hate the rule doesn't mean we're going to not support our idols? We can still like the music and the girls and dislike the rule.
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by Ap2000 »

[quote name='JPope' timestamp='1359946799' post='143581']

For those who are so disgusted by the no bf/gf rules of the Japanese pop idol industry, how do you justify your contribution to it's perpetuation via your fandom?

[/quote]



I find this kinda hard to explain in English, but I'll try.

Most of the products we buy/support, doesn't matter if it's an idol CD/DVD or something else, have stuff attached to it, parts that we don't like, things that are subpar and so on. But that doesn't mean you can only buy/support stuff that you are 100% happy with.

Or, to make an insane hyperbole, just because you live in a specific country, doesn't mean you have to like every single thing your government does. Of course you have to live somewhere, but you don't have to buy idol stuff. However, I think you get what I mean.
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by Pflaume »

[quote name='JPope' timestamp='1359946799' post='143581']

For those who are so disgusted by the no bf/gf rules of the Japanese pop idol industry, how do you justify your contribution to it's perpetuation via your fandom?

[/quote]



Since I'm not exactly in the Japanese pop idol fandom any longer, I don't know if this directly applies to me, but my thoughts on it are as follows:



I've said it once and I will say it a million times, as fans it is our job to speak out about how unhappy we are with the status quo. Companies keep dating bans because certain fans want them to be kept, therefore I actually think it's the responsibility of those fans to stand up and ask for it to be reformed.



Sadly, I think international J-pop fans simply don't have as much clout in this regard.



I do believe that if you really like something, rather than just opting out if part of it doesn't go your way, you see what difference you can make. The problem is that in this case it would require a lot of people standing up simultaneously to make a difference. I find that really disheartening. That is NOT to say you don't do your part, just to say that it'll require a lot of people doing theirs, too.



I kind of hope that the negative attention this is receiving will rattle someone higher up. I hope that the internet raging about it will rattle someone. I hope those someones keep being rattled until some shit changes and they start treating their idols like people.
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by Gerald »

Additionally I would guess that "punishment" varies from managenment to management. Several of the H!P girls weren't treated that badly when their little mistakes emerged. I suppose Kago was the most affected but she had a history. Others like Abe, Yaguchi, Fujimoto rode out the scandal without having to be so publically humiliated and still have careers.
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by Ap2000 »

[quote name='The Turtle Moves' timestamp='1359978145' post='143619']

Additionally I would guess that "punishment" varies from managenment to management. Several of the H!P girls weren't treated that badly when their little mistakes emerged. I suppose Kago was the most affected but she had a history. Others like Abe, Yaguchi, Fujimoto rode out the scandal without having to be so publically humiliated and still have careers.

[/quote]



Kago however did something illegal and not just date a boy.
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by JPope »

[quote name='Cyrene' timestamp='1359953073' post='143595']

[quote name='JPope' timestamp='1359946799' post='143581']

For those who are so disgusted by the no bf/gf rules of the Japanese pop idol industry, how do you justify your contribution to it's perpetuation via your fandom?

[/quote]



Just because we hate the rule doesn't mean we're going to not support our idols? We can still like the music and the girls and dislike the rule.

[/quote]

I'm not speaking to those who simply don't agree with the No Dating rules -- I think they're silly and unnecessary -- I'm speaking to those who seem to believe that the companies are exploiting children in ways that are immoral. And yes, I'm looking primarily at you, Plum, but others have expressed a similar level of outrage at the idol industry in general in this thread.



Other than not consuming the fruits of their exploitation, how can you expect the industry to change? And honestly, if you truly believe that these girls are being exploited on a level that is immoral or unethical, how can you possibly enjoy the end result of that exploitation and live with yourself afterwards? Am I just reading too much into some of your guys' comments? I'm asking this seriously, not as a troll. I just don't see how one could at once enjoy Jpop idol groups while believing them to exploit the idols immorally or unethically.
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by Melon »

It tried to organize it, but my thoughts are still scattered.



When it comes to the young girls, the contracts are being signed by the parents. I assume therefore, that the parents will look after their child's best interests. So while I find it creepy that girls like Riho are getting bikini photobooks, I also believe that the parents were okay with said things happening. I also believe no parent is completely dumb to the fact that said items exist or that the girls will be expected to do so, so if they had an objection, they would have voiced it before signing the contract if the contract included stipulations like "photobooks wearing swimsuits".



It is their dream to be famous, an idol, whatever, and as a fan I feel it is right to support them. Because they've grown up as an idol, I'm tempted to let things slide because I think they're "ignorant" to a lot of things we consider common sense because they had a unique set of situations during their developmental years.



It is natural for older girls to want to fall in love, so I also believe once the girl reaches the age of adulthood (I think that's 20 in Japan?) a new contract should be drawn and it should be accepted for them to date. In the ideal world, that is.



There's also the situation of the idea of an idol in general. It really depends on how many as a whole are invested in the (absolutely inane) idea that the idol could be their significant other before it can be changed.



But I'm not going to stop being a fan and stop supporting their dreams because of one thing. After leaving the idol industry, they can see whomever they want publically. If they weren't idols, they may not have been able to achieve their ultimate goal or secondary, however you want to put it, as an actress, solo artist, model, ect ect. In the end, I am a fan of these girls and I want to support them and see their dreams come true. If the fans as a whole would team up and be louder than that extremely vocal minority, maybe the rule could be changed.



Because yes, there are several horrible things about it, even when you think of the korean idols who faint onstage from exhaustion and eat starvation diets, but these people are working hard for our approval and I don't have the heart to deny their work from principle of matters. This perpetuates the problem, but to be honest, until the stars themselves strike against it and the fans can support their strike, nothing will change.
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by tsukinobyouin »

I split the topic again. I thought Jpope brought up an interesting question but the discussion was already starting to go beyond That One AKB girl. There were some other posts that should probably go in this thread too but I didn't want to go weeding through the thread for days.
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by yuzuriha »

Petit, I don't think I could have put it better myself!
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by eri »

[quote name='JPope' timestamp='1359946799' post='143581']

For those who are so disgusted by the no bf/gf rules of the Japanese pop idol industry, how do you justify your contribution to it's perpetuation via your fandom?...



I'm not speaking to those who simply don't agree with the No Dating rules -- I think they're silly and unnecessary -- I'm speaking to those who seem to believe that the companies are exploiting children in ways that are immoral. And yes, I'm looking primarily at you, Plum, but others have expressed a similar level of outrage at the idol industry in general in this thread.



Other than not consuming the fruits of their exploitation, how can you expect the industry to change? And honestly, if you truly believe that these girls are being exploited on a level that is immoral or unethical, how can you possibly enjoy the end result of that exploitation and live with yourself afterwards? Am I just reading too much into some of your guys' comments? I'm asking this seriously, not as a troll. I just don't see how one could at once enjoy Jpop idol groups while believing them to exploit the idols immorally or unethically.

[/quote]



Not really part of idol fandom anymore because everything makes me rage <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... omgwtf.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':omgwtf:' /> <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... omgwtf.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':omgwtf:' /> However, it boils down to 2 things that you underestimate in your posts.



1. [The hope that] change can happen within.

With so much emphasis on personalized intimacy, I don't think we are looking at some 1-way model of mass consumption, mass production. And even though, yes, idols ARE produced along cliche models, the companies are still trying to capture the shifting interests of the audience, aka cash cow. We will never really know the degree to which fan reaction is considered when making major company decisions. However, the belief that fans have an input does exist.



After all, the no-dating rule was created for fan-service. If fans-as-customers are unhappy with this rule, they feel they might be able to change it. For AKB, people literally vote. For other idol groups, people "vote" with their money. But most of all, people raise a huge ass stink about it in a way that shames the company reputation so they lose money large-scale.



1b. Who else will change it? There is pretty solid documentation that the Japanese press does not, cannot, and will not act as a critical institution -- or they join in for the money in an eternal loop. There is always rumblings about Johnny's and child abuse but it is silenced up pretty quickly. There is a sort of offhand assumption that the yakuza ultimately run it all but, no one really looks into it. Non-fans ignore the entire idol world as the most embarrassing evidence of Japanese culture at large. So unless law-makers come snooping around and deem non-dating rules as illegal (which at least 1 guy did, though I can't find the link now), then only fans can make a fuss about stupid things in the industry.



2. Consumption of idol-stuff is a lot more complex than what you allow for.

You act as if one must be 100% against it, or you are siding with the terrorists.

People are invested in idol-pop in different ways and even the same product will be interpreted by fans differently. We see this all the time. Photobook as idealized, artsy work or an excuse for U-15 soft core porn? Do idols present an idealized world of homosocial bliss for other girls? Or allow for creepy voyeurism for older men? (Trick questions: answer is all of the above)



For some people, the good idol-pop offers will just barely excuse the bad. They think that a no-dating rule is a small "minus" in a world of pluses, both for the idol and the fan.

For others, nothing can excuse the bad but for all the reasons stated, idol pop is so hard to stop buying into. In other words, they know they are complicit in large, heavy, institutional problems but are addicted to the small, light, happy consumer bites.

In both cases, acknowledging the terrible truths about the industry do not significantly interfere with enjoying and consuming it.
Last edited by eri on Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by AEUGNewtype »


There is pretty solid documentation that the Japanese press does not, cannot, and will not act as a critical institution -- or they join in for the money in an eternal loop. There is always rumblings about Johnny's and child abuse but it is silenced up pretty quickly. There is a sort of offhand assumption that the yakuza ultimately run it all but, no one really looks into it. Non-fans ignore the entire idol world as the most embarrassing evidence of Japanese culture at large. So unless law-makers come snooping around and deem non-dating rules as illegal (which at least 1 guy did, though I can't find the link now), then only fans can make a fuss about stupid things in the industry.
THISTHISTHISTHISTHIS. This is HUGE in understanding anything in Japanese pop culture and business and how it all relates to the media.


Consumption of idol-stuff is a lot more complex than what you allow for.

You act as if one must be 100% against it, or you are siding with the terrorists.

People are invested in idol-pop in different ways and even the same product will be interpreted by fans differently. We see this all the time. Photobook as idealized, artsy work or an excuse for U-15 soft core porn? Do idols present an idealized world of homosocial bliss for other girls? Or allow for creepy voyeurism for older men? (Trick questions: answer is all of the above)



For some people, the good idol-pop offers will just barely excuse the bad. They think that a no-dating rule is a small "minus" in a world of pluses, both for the idol and the fan.

For others, nothing can excuse the bad but for all the reasons stated, idol pop is so hard to stop buying into. In other words, they know they are complicit in large, heavy, institutional problems but are addicted to the small, light, happy consumer bites.

In both cases, acknowledging the terrible truths about the industry do not significantly interfere with enjoying and consuming it.
This, as well. More or less what AP and Petit said, just more fleshed out.
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by eri »

AEUG agrees with something I wrote. Minami Minegishi has brought peace and understanding to us all.
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by JPope »

Idols,like any other commodity, can't exist without paying customers. The decision to spend or not spend money on the industry is the only cudgel fans have to effect the practices of the idol houses, and the moment those houses start losing money is the only moment change can happen, because so long as everyone is making money there is no incentive to change the model. There is no "changing from within" from the fan's perspective because the industry's perspective is, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." There is only "changing from without," as in leaving the companies without your money. And letting them know why.



Let's be frank, anyone who believes that the idol industry is run by the yakuza or exploits idols in a manner that is truly immoral or unethical, while at the same time continuing to spend money on it has no right to complain about any perceived moral or ethical failings of the industry. I'm not talking about No Dating rules, which are silly but not really immoral in an exploitative way, but more along the lines of questionable photo books or crushing workloads. Or making money for organized criminal enterprises.
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by Nacchi »

This might be unrelevant and someone has probably said it before but if the idols were allowed to date they would probably manage to feel what they are singing. Then their songs will become more real for their artist.



Why can't people just be happy that their idols have found love?
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by Madara »

If I thought the girls were being exploited at all or made unhappy by the work they were doing, I wouldn't support it. Regarding the concerts, albums and music videos, they all seem to enjoy what they're doing. The smiles on their faces as they perform on stage together seem genuine to me. I remember seeing Nono laugh on stage in one of the very first numbers in that first concert I saw and I was hooked. That expression of JOY was one of the things that pulled me in to this world. You rarely see that in American pop music. I watch a lot of the backstage/making of footage and they seem to be having such a good time with each other. In the "Live Document" connected to one of the H!P Summer 2012 concerts, they spend a lot of time making each other laugh.



The only ones who ever seemed vaguely uncomfortable were Miki, who would make wisecracks at everything during sessions on "Hello! Morning" simply to counteract her boredom, and Koharu, who was way more high-maintenance than the others.



If I was a teenage girl, I think I'd want to be doing what the H!P girls are doing.



Having said all that, I must add that I don't buy the photobooks because I find them in questionable taste and a tad exploitative.
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by Melon »

Just a thought, let's not front like there isn't exploitation in all media around the world. In context, I'd rather be an idol than a Disney star or Nick, considering the rumors around those parts. :\
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by aine »


go eat a bag of dicks.
OM NOM NOM



I meant to make a longer post with many replies, but then I didn't have time and the shitstorm thankfully subsided in the meantime.



And after re-reading the thread, all I'd say would be just re-phrasing of what's already been said:



Here is the job, here are the stipulations. Don't like it, don't do it.

I don't give a shit about "being a woman" or social expectations or whatever. Here is a job. Here is a rule that applies to the job. Don't piss in the frier at McDonalds. Oh, you pissed in it? You're fired. It's as simple as that. Unless they are made to sign those contracts at gunpoint and not able to leave, they they took it upon themselves to agree to those terms. Period.

Okay, fine. My contract says that I cannot express anything negative about the organization I work for in a public venue. It's right there, clearly written in the contract. So lets say I got really pissed off and ranted about my job on Facebook. I is an AMERICAN!!! I haz teh freedom of speech!!!! Y U fire me?!? No, I can't say shit if they fire me, because it is right there on that piece of paper I read over and signed when I agreed to the job.

Whatever. Should the rule be changed? You can argue for that point all day long. But I am saying "Here is the contract/rule AS IT STANDS TODAY." They broke it. They knowingly entered into the agreement, knowingly did the activity that caused the problem, and should face the repercussions. I think the whole situation with the head shaving and demotion is fucked up, but I'm just here arguing the point of this is something they willingly entered into and they should deal with it. Changing the industry is a whole other argument.
And for all of you still having trouble separating one matter (girl knowingly breaking the terms of her contract) from another matter (the fact that you think there is something fundamentally wrong with the idol industry that such rules exist) we have a perfect emoticon here on the BBS:



<img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... lalala.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lalala:' />





The rest is just my tl;dr ramblings on various points raised earlier in the thread. You can pretend the rest of this post does not exist and you won't lose much.



You all seem to be forgetting that idol industry is not a happy lala-land but serious business, that idols are not humans but products of said industry, and that all situations in which you see your idols are not reality but an act. This is the harsh truth and if you allow yourself to forget about it, then you're just deceiving yourself. Of course we all enjoy indulging in this lala-land and we all do it, but that's just part of the game.



I think the "OMG HUMAN RIGHTS!!1" faction here is just as wrong as those who want and do see the idols as their virginal ideal waifus. They're neither that, nor the girls next door who sing and dance happy tunes on youtube for your enjoyment. They're employees of the idol agencies, they have their contracts and their obligations.



The difference from most other jobs is that they're on the job practically 24/7 and that they are the face of the product and are responsible for the product's image. If they tarnish that image - whatever that image was arbitrarily set to be by the agency that owns it - then this translates into countable losses for the agency. Because, deny it as much as you want, but this is business and it's all about money. I am willing to believe that Minegishi's reaction and apology was honest, but everything that came after that was just damage control by the agency and trying to give it the correct spin that would translate into the right kind of publicity. Cash must flow.



We could discuss all day long how right or wrong it is that such an industry exist and/or has such rules, but as pointed out already, that's an entirely separate issue. The premise of the idol industry is what it is and it won't change because you think it's wrong. I don't know when it actually took this form with the no dating rules and all (does anyone know when the no dating rule came around?), but for all practical purposes we must accept it as a fact of life and either play the game or not. The only viable way of telling the agencies how unhappy we are with their policies would be to vote with our wallets and stop buying their goods. But considering the negligible fraction of western fans in general who buy any goods at all, we have just about fuck all say in shaping the future of the industry. Unless you want to start an online petition about it. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /lmfao.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lmfao:' />



The fact that the Japanese fans successfully requested that Minegishi's video is taken down could be seen as a positive sign of the change, BUT as far as it's reported in the West they demanded it not because they were outraged by the rules or her act as such, but because they accepted and were happy enough with her apology. So they are happy with the general status quo of the idol industry and don't seem to want to turn it into a "no rules" thing as you do, where the girls sing, dance, and goof out on the TV, but the rest of the image is nobody's business.



While on this subject, I'd like to reserve and copyright the "PNS69 - Idols You Can Stick Your Dick Into" trademark and slogan. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... umbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' /> (not intended as a jab at AKB or anyone in the thread, I just felt that it would be a waste not to share this shining example of my sharp wit and edgy humour with y'all <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... lleyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rolleyes:' />)



I'm a bit ambivalent about the "where were the parents" thing. Yes, they are responsible for signing their underage daughters for what now seems to be demonized as a work camp with no personal freedoms. But not all idols end up breaking the rules (or maybe just being careless enough to get caught?), and not all end up bad after ending their idol careers. Most just fulfill their girly dreams of idoldom, spotlight, and singing cute songs in cute outfits. If a family had problems to begin with, then the idol career could have at worst amplified it to some degree by putting it in the public eye. Ask that of the Nakanishis, whose two daughters ended up in AV, one after a pretty promising start of a career as an idol.



Finally, again without meaning it as a jab at AKB in general, to all of you making it to be an oasis of girly purity and innocence now desecrated by forcing Minegishi to take away her prized femininity attribute, lets not forget that they started off by pandering to the rather lowest instincts. Subbed versions linked intentionally.



Ayumi Hamasaki getting married, Koda Kumi getting knocked up and married, Namie Amuro's marriage, pregnancy, divorce, and dating rumors
They're not idols, they're pop artists/performers. Completely different ballpark, different premises, different target groups, different strategies. If consumers only wanted pop performers to be pop performers there would be no idol industry, but there is idol industry because there is demand for it. Demanding that idols suddenly turn into "just" pop performers with all their perceived freedoms and stuff is basically asking to invalidate and do away with the whole idol industry as it has shaped itself over the last 30 or so years, with all it's up- and down-sides.



Also, here's a translation of management's official G+ post about all this:


Spoiler: [+]
We have received many opinions and questions from the fans regarding the video of Minegishi’s apology. I would like to add further explanations since the we failed to fully express an explanation to you.



・Why did you have to upload a video like this?



When we were in a hurry preparing for the streaming and we have received a report that Minegishi really wants to apologize personally with her hair shaved. We felt how strong her will and feeling towards AKB48 was, so we decided to stream the video as we planned.



・Was it necessary for her to shave her hair?



Was it necessary? Or not? If you ask me, the answer will probably be “No, it wasn’t. However, what I can tell you for sure is that Minegishi surely wanted to convey how strong her feeling was.



・Couldn’t anybody stop her from shaving her hair?



I heard that when she came out from the make up room, she had already shaved her hair. It seems that the staff beside her did stop her. However, I heard that she said that people might think of her as a fool, but she really wanted to put her reflection into action, so she cut her bangs using scissors without losing control over herself.



・Isn’t it unfair that the punishment for each of the members who had scandals were different?



It would be better if we can establish the common rule. However, we are experiencing a dilemma because it is difficult to conceive a common rule since each member is under a different situation.

For example, there was a member who had been warned many times, but did not listen to anyone and caused a scandal.

There was also a member who wanted to pursue her dreams and was about to plan on graduating when a scandal about her was exposed.

There was also a member whose past incident was reported as a scandal.

There was also a member whose scandal was not exposed, but had a huge rule violation behind the scenes.

Please do understand that we have to make decisions with consideration to many circumstances.



・There was a photo of Minegishi, which has been uploaded on the internet, where she looked like she was having fun with the first generation members. Did she really reflect on her actions?



Before the rehearsals of the theater performance of Team B, I saw Minegishi who came to apologize with an exhausted expression on her face, so I can say that she has reflected on her actions. At the same time, it seemed like she was trying her best not to make people around her feel worried. I think that is the reason why the members of the same generation as her were encouraging Minegishi who was feeling depressed.



We, the managing team, would like to support the members who are trying their best to pursue their dreams by having continuous discussion with them.



Tomonobu Togasaki

AKB Group Theater General Manager
I work for a western branch of a very Japanese company, and this is so eerily similar in style and language to the many internal documents we get as well as the public statements issued by the HQ. This probably more than anything else in this thread reconfirmed to me that, from the agency's point of view, there was a screw-up with their product and they are just doing damage control as a part of their business strategy. The cons of letting Minegishi stay despite it being a deviation from previous decisions were outweighed by the pros of the long-term image and revenue that having her on will bring. I feel pretty disillusioned myself analyzing it that way, but that's the bottom line of any entertainment business.



On a positive note, I don't think it's as grim and cynical as I have painted it above. The truth is somewhere in the middle. Apart from the few and far between cases the girls seem to be well off and enjoying their job and being genuinely happy when their stuff sells. For many it will probably be the most exciting few years of their youth that they will remember with a nostalgic smile rather than a bitter frown some 20 or 30 years from now. I for one will keep supporting them, aware that there may be some pitfalls, aware that they will only see a fraction of the money I spend on the goods, and that if I turn out to be wrong then I will be guilty of having indulged in a hedonistic pleasure at their expense. But with all said and done, I trust it won't be the case.





PS. I also don't know shit about shit and all arguments I've typed above are invalid anyway. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... #>/meh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';/' />





EDIT: Posting this in the new thread instead because it ended up being much more about the general issue than the particular case.
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by Nacchi »

Sorry if I sound stupid or anything but what's the difference between an idol and a artist/preformer? They do the exactly same stuff O.O
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by yuzuriha »

[quote name='Petit Hulk' timestamp='1360072767' post='143727']

Just a thought, let's not front like there isn't exploitation in all media around the world. In context, I'd rather be an idol than a Disney star or Nick, considering the rumors around those parts. :\

[/quote]



I'd love to be a Disney or Nick star BECAUSE of the rumours around those parts HOHOHO
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by aine »

[quote name='KawaiiYankee' timestamp='1360079287' post='143731']

Sorry if I sound stupid or anything but what's the difference between an idol and a artist/preformer? They do the exactly same stuff O.O

[/quote]

Artists/performers perform the songs, sometimes ever write or compose them, but that's more or less where their role ends. The focus is on their songs or performances. Idols do much more and the focus is on their person and personality rather than on their songs or performances (which tbh are often mediocre). Or more simply put, artists remain their own persons and sell their artistic products, while idols sell their souls and are the products.



IMHO.
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by Melon »

[quote name='yuzuriha' timestamp='1360079939' post='143733']

[quote name='Petit Hulk' timestamp='1360072767' post='143727']

Just a thought, let's not front like there isn't exploitation in all media around the world. In context, I'd rather be an idol than a Disney star or Nick, considering the rumors around those parts. :\

[/quote]



I'd love to be a Disney or Nick star BECAUSE of the rumours around those parts HOHOHO

[/quote]





Man, those guys are so FUGLY tho



if they were cute, maybe
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by yuzuriha »

[quote name='Petit Hulk' timestamp='1360080854' post='143735']

[quote name='yuzuriha' timestamp='1360079939' post='143733']

[quote name='Petit Hulk' timestamp='1360072767' post='143727']

Just a thought, let's not front like there isn't exploitation in all media around the world. In context, I'd rather be an idol than a Disney star or Nick, considering the rumors around those parts. :\

[/quote]



I'd love to be a Disney or Nick star BECAUSE of the rumours around those parts HOHOHO

[/quote]





Man, those guys are so FUGLY tho



if they were cute, maybe

[/quote]





True.



Also KY, that's exactly my thoughts on the thing (re: they should understand what they're singing about). I don't know if I said it in the other thread or H!O or on FB or what, but that's always bothered me.



I would be just as thrilled to find out that Risako had a boyfriend as I would be to find out that Yama-P had a girlfriend.
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by Nacchi »

[quote name='aine' timestamp='1360080077' post='143734']

[quote name='KawaiiYankee' timestamp='1360079287' post='143731']

Sorry if I sound stupid or anything but what's the difference between an idol and a artist/preformer? They do the exactly same stuff O.O

[/quote]

Artists/performers perform the songs, sometimes ever write or compose them, but that's more or less where their role ends. The focus is on their songs or performances. Idols do much more and the focus is on their person and personality rather than on their songs or performances (which tbh are often mediocre). Or more simply put, artists remain their own persons and sell their artistic products, while idols sell their souls and are the products.



IMHO.

[/quote]



Thanks for the explanation, I have never understood it xD
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by tsukinobyouin »

[quote name='KawaiiYankee' timestamp='1360081823' post='143738']

[quote name='aine' timestamp='1360080077' post='143734']

[quote name='KawaiiYankee' timestamp='1360079287' post='143731']

Sorry if I sound stupid or anything but what's the difference between an idol and a artist/preformer? They do the exactly same stuff O.O

[/quote]

Artists/performers perform the songs, sometimes ever write or compose them, but that's more or less where their role ends. The focus is on their songs or performances. Idols do much more and the focus is on their person and personality rather than on their songs or performances (which tbh are often mediocre). Or more simply put, artists remain their own persons and sell their artistic products, while idols sell their souls and are the products.



IMHO.

[/quote]



Thanks for the explanation, I have never understood it xD

[/quote]



To further add to this, it's possible to be an idol and not sing at all. The only example I can think of at the moment is Ikuta Toma, but I'm sure there are others. Most idols do sing, but there are quite a few who put a lot more focus on acting, variety appearances, or modeling.





Also, I forgot to quote, but thanks Petit for bringing up the fact that the entertainment industry has issues worldwide. I feel like that fact gets a little lost in some of the debate at times.
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by AEUGNewtype »

[quote name='eri' timestamp='1360031112' post='143691']

AEUG agrees with something I wrote. Minami Minegishi has brought peace and understanding to us all.

[/quote]

<img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /weeeh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':weeeh:' />



[quote name='aine' timestamp='1360080077' post='143734']

[quote name='KawaiiYankee' timestamp='1360079287' post='143731']

Sorry if I sound stupid or anything but what's the difference between an idol and a artist/preformer? They do the exactly same stuff O.O

[/quote]

Artists/performers perform the songs, sometimes ever write or compose them, but that's more or less where their role ends. The focus is on their songs or performances. Idols do much more and the focus is on their person and personality rather than on their songs or performances (which tbh are often mediocre). Or more simply put, artists remain their own persons and sell their artistic products, while idols sell their souls and are the products.

[/quote]

This is fairly accurate, though I might say they.."conceal" their soul, maybe not sell it entirely, they just suppress it for the sake of appearing to be a product. They can get it back, if they choose, but they may lose their job. But then again, that just gets into the whole honne/tatamae concept that dictates most interactions in Japanese culture and business. For those not familiar, this gives a pretty good explanation. I know everyone seems to hate Japan Times, but the guy did a good job of making the concepts and effects of it understandable.



[quote name='yuzuriha' timestamp='1360081454' post='143736']

I would be just as thrilled to find out that Risako had a boyfriend[/quote]

But would you be thrilled that she left or got kicked out of the entertainment industry never to be seen again because of that boyfriend?
Last edited by AEUGNewtype on Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by yuzuriha »

No, but my point is that is why I am against this dumb rule.
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Re: Idols and Morals and Stuff

Post by eri »

[quote name='JPope' timestamp='1360041069' post='143708']

Idols,like any other commodity, can't exist without paying customers. The decision to spend or not spend money on the industry is the only cudgel fans have to effect the practices of the idol houses, and the moment those houses start losing money is the only moment change can happen, because so long as everyone is making money there is no incentive to change the model. There is no "changing from within" from the fan's perspective because the industry's perspective is, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." There is only "changing from without," as in leaving the companies without your money. And letting them know why.



Let's be frank, anyone who believes that the idol industry is run by the yakuza or exploits idols in a manner that is truly immoral or unethical, while at the same time continuing to spend money on it has no right to complain about any perceived moral or ethical failings of the industry. I'm not talking about No Dating rules, which are silly but not really immoral in an exploitative way, but more along the lines of questionable photo books or crushing workloads. Or making money for organized criminal enterprises.

[/quote]



I agree with the logic in this. But my point was simply that fandom is not logical. Idol fandom, kinda like religion and/or capitalism haha, is entirely about emotional investment and dream creation. And on many levels. It requires cognitive dissonance even BEFORE scandals and whatnot.



My comment is not concerning what fans should or shouldn't do - just reflecting on what they DO do. The simultaneous denial of wrongdoing in the idol world as well as the mental loop that ackowledgs problems even while enjoying parts of it are actually effects of the idol fantasy from the get go.
Last edited by eri on Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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