Yasukuni Shrine

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NekoKaiSai
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Yasukuni Shrine

Post by NekoKaiSai »

The other day this article came out and then this happened.



China likes to make a big deal out of anything that Japan does, however I've never heard of China doing anything other than criticize Japan over this. That being said to have South Korea do this was rather surprising. For some reason I was under the impression that Japan and South Korea were more friendly than this. I realize that there are some island disputes, but this seems to be an overreaction on South Korea's part. Do South Koreans even care when Japanese politicians go to Yasukuni? The Shrine is for everyone who died in service to the Japanese Empire, yet the countries who are saying that Japan ignores parts of their military history are completely ignoring all but 14 people.



I could ignore it when it was just China, but this is clearly a larger issue than I initially thought. Anyone have any light they can shed on this situation?
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Re: Yasukuni Shrine

Post by Ap2000 »

[quote name='NekoKai' timestamp='1366733440' post='150025']



For some reason I was under the impression that Japan and South Korea were more friendly than this. I realize that there are some island disputes, but this seems to be an overreaction on South Korea's part. Do South Koreans even care when Japanese politicians go to Yasukuni?

[/quote]



That is very wrong. This happens all the time, every year.

There is A LOT more tension between SK and Japan than China and Japan

Partially also because Koreans are raised and taught pretty nationalistic shit in school and through their society.

China officials pretty much don't care, they just use party-fueled riots to distract from their own internal struggles, as we clearly saw last time.



However, I think it's stupid that Japanese ministers keep visiting Yasukuni. And their "we're just visiting a shrine lol" behaviour is also kinda ridiculous, since they know exactly what reaction it will trigger.



There are many books that go into detail as to why each side behaves the way they do and how each opinion was formed. Also, who is actually fueling this scuffle.
Last edited by Ap2000 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yasukuni Shrine

Post by eri »

[quote name='NekoKai' timestamp='1366733440' post='150025']

The other day this article came out and then this happened.



China likes to make a big deal out of anything that Japan does, however I've never heard of China doing anything other than criticize Japan over this. That being said to have South Korea do this was rather surprising. For some reason I was under the impression that Japan and South Korea were more friendly than this. I realize that there are some island disputes, but this seems to be an overreaction on South Korea's part. Do South Koreans even care when Japanese politicians go to Yasukuni? The Shrine is for everyone who died in service to the Japanese Empire, yet the countries who are saying that Japan ignores parts of their military history are completely ignoring all but 14 people.



I could ignore it when it was just China, but this is clearly a larger issue than I initially thought. Anyone have any light they can shed on this situation?

[/quote]



First, Yasukuni is not apolitical whatsoever, as though it was just some local, privately attended grave-site or worshiping place. On the same grounds of the shrine is a pretty shockingly revisionary right wing museum that straight up praises militarism and presents Japan as the victim of the war era. Furthermore, the shrine is specifically dedicated to those fighting in national wars, cleansing these souls of wrongdoing because those wars were fought on behalf of the emperor. This does not even taken into account the very controversial inclusion of those war criminals but, as they say, what would people think of the German Chancellor prayed at Hitler's grave each year? What is most interesting to me is that the museum and the shrine both present Japan as merely the victim of European/American imperialism...but completely sidesteps atrocities undertaken by Japanese imperialism. This is precisely why Japan's former colonies are the most pissed about these visits. And yes, they get pissed each and every time it happens.



Secondly, all of this is complicated when high profile state officials visit with their entourage of media. These visits are always presented as uncomfortably, pseudo-official state actions, with all of the symbolism involved. There is an official separation of church/state in Japan and merging the two always reminds people of fascist-era national Shinto and emperor worship. But more importantly, visits to the shrine have EXPLICITLY been used as nationalist politicking in the last few decades while allowing politicians to simply say they were visiting in their private capacities. Before saying that there is nothing inherently wrong with a nationally elected politician to engage in a little memorializaing, you have to remember that NO JAPANESE EMPEROR has EVER visited Yasukuni in the postwar era (well, technically starting with Hirohito in 1978) precisely because of its wartime connections. Also, these politician visits to Yasukuni were NOT A THING until very recently. Hence, it is not so much that Asia is over-reacting to some time honored tradition but that Asia is reacting to a fairly conspicuous and new event that started in a new era of Japanese post-bubble/recessionary nationalism.



Thirdly, the disturbing elements of Yasukuni go beyond the alignment of politicians with pro-military sites. For many people, it is a really fucked up symbol of Japanese colonialism on multiple levels. There are many colonial subjects who died on behalf of the Japanese empire (not really by choice but by circumstance) who are excluded from national mourning (see also the controversy over Hiroshima Memorial). With state-sanctioned Shinto across the entire empire, people could not even be privately mourned in their own cultural contexts. Leo Ching (Duke) has a pretty horrible story in one of his books about a group of Taiwanese aboriginals who travel to Yasukuni to politely ask that the spirits of their war dead be released, in order to be properly buried according to their religion. (Yasukuni officials said that was impossible). So while the official party line held by Korean and Chinese nationalists might sound like a lot of typical political blustering, a lot of people are truly horrified by these visits and what they symbolize in the larger postcolonial context.



Korean and Chinese nationalists have their own set of problems, sure. But so do Japanese nationalists! And Yasukuni is just a huge shit-storm that fuckers like Abe just love, LOVE to stir up over and over again.





And I wish fans of Japanese anime and pop music could stop treating "Japan," a whole country with a complicated history and set of social problems, as some innocent doe-eyed victim being bullied by its neighbors. Global politics are complicated and as the colonial aggressor that got rich off of US militarism (Korean and Vietnam Wars), I can't really act like "Japan" is the victim in any of this. Edit: This isn't directed at you Neko, but in general. I see it all the time in Kpop vs Jpop fan sites or on reddit etc. It doesn't make any sense to me.



Edit: PS I find it funny that political controversy falls into the "Chillout Lounge." <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... wheely.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wheely:' />
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Re: Yasukuni Shrine

Post by NekoKaiSai »

I would like to thank both of you because YAY information. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... nceman.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':danceman:' />

[quote name='Ap2000' timestamp='1366742649' post='150031']

There are many books that go into detail as to why each side behaves the way they do and how each opinion was formed. Also, who is actually fueling this scuffle.

[/quote]

Do you have any recommendations?



[quote name='eri' timestamp='1366764153' post='150056']

Before saying that there is nothing inherently wrong with a nationally elected politician to engage in a little memorializaing, you have to remember that NO JAPANESE EMPEROR has EVER visited Yasukuni in the postwar era (well, technically starting with Hirohito in 1978) precisely because of its wartime connections. Also, these politician visits to Yasukuni were NOT A THING until very recently. Hence, it is not so much that Asia is over-reacting to some time honored tradition but that Asia is reacting to a fairly conspicuous and new event that started in a new era of Japanese post-bubble/recessionary nationalism.

[/quote]

This puts so much perspective on it.



[quote name='eri' timestamp='1366764153' post=#150056']

So while the official party line held by Korean and Chinese nationalists might sound like a lot of typical political blustering, a lot of people are truly horrified by these visits and what they symbolize in the larger postcolonial context.

[/quote]

To those people who are bothered, do these visits symbolize something more than "Japan is ignoring part of its history/playing the victim" or "Japan is glorifying militarism"? As in, is there a concern that Japan might try something along the lines of colonizing again or that how Koreans in Japan are treated (which is a whole other clusterfuck) might worsen?
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Re: Yasukuni Shrine

Post by Ap2000 »

[quote name='NekoKai' timestamp='1366792572' post='150071']



To those people who are bothered, do these visits symbolize something more than "Japan is ignoring part of its history/playing the victim" or "Japan is glorifying militarism"? As in, is there a concern that Japan might try something along the lines of colonizing again or that how Koreans in Japan are treated (which is a whole other clusterfuck) might worsen?

[/quote]



No, Japan won't go to war unless they're attacked, which realistically could only happen with NK. However, if NK goes to war against SK/J/USA, then I'm sure there'd be a controversial discussion if the JSDF is allowed on Korean soil (because of the history of Japan in South-East Asia) and not just give supporting help from the sea and maybe some airstrikes.

Not only does it state so in the constitution (which in recent years some right-wingers wanted to change), but the youth and large parts of the middle-aged and elder people also have a very pacifistic "wish". Many simply do not want for more money to be spent on the military and my impression is that the general consensus is that Japan should never go to war again.



As for books, I haven't read any on this topic recently, I found one by John Breen however about the Yasukuni shrine and he knows his stuff. He's one of the most well-known persons in the field of Japanese studies:



Breen, John

2007 Yasukuni - The war dead and the struggle for Japan's past. London:Hurst.



This one also seems very interesting, possibly written from a Korean perspective:



Hyun Dae-Song

2008 The historical perceptions of Korea and Japan - Its origins and points of the issues concerning Dokdo-Takeshima, Yasukuni Shrine, comfort women and textbooks. Paju:Nanam.





A general tip about this topic: I'd recommend books that aren't older than mid/late 90s, because of what eri correclty wrote.
Last edited by Ap2000 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yasukuni Shrine

Post by Madara »

What Eri and Ap2000 said.



To NekoKai specifically and to the board in general, I'd like to recommend "Inventing Japan 1853-1964" by Ian Buruma, a short but concise book published in 2004 which examines what Japan took from the west, both good and bad, when it began its drive for modernization following the "opening up" of Japan in the 1850s. I plan to do a writeup on it on my blog when I get the chance.



Here's the Amazon link:



http://www.amazon.com/Inventing-Japan-1 ... ting+japan
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Re: Yasukuni Shrine

Post by NekoKaiSai »

Thank you both, I shall try to find all three of those books. I'm also looking forward to your writeup, Madara.
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Re: Yasukuni Shrine

Post by eri »

[quote name='NekoKai' timestamp='1366792572' post='150071']

To those people who are bothered, do these visits symbolize something more than "Japan is ignoring part of its history/playing the victim" or "Japan is glorifying militarism"? As in, is there a concern that Japan might try something along the lines of colonizing again or that how Koreans in Japan are treated (which is a whole other clusterfuck) might worsen?

[/quote]



From the general statements that are always released in the news, my sense is that people are pissed that "Japan" isn't "reallllly being sorry" for imperialism. Part of this is linked to the "Japan is ignoring its history/playing the victim" because if they really knew the history, they wouldn't dance around Yasukuni so flippantly.



I can't imagine that people are really afraid of old-school military imperialism in this age. But, I did meet a Korean girl who used to lament that S. Korea was such a small, vulnerable nation (teeny tiny if you think about it) and that they do not have the resources to really protect themselves against mega powers like China, Japan, and the US. Her friend used to joke that S. Korea was the new colony of the US, or its 51st state because of IMF and free trade reforms.



Btw, please do NOT read Ian Buruma, who is a sensationalist journalist and famous "Japan basher" of the 80s. He is NOT an academic. Sorry Madara. Buruma might be readable but he isn't very sound and his work is very very very problematic.



For readable but academically sound articles, I like JapanFocus (free access online). Here is a good one:

http://www.japanfocus.org/data/takahashi_1642.pdf

Googling around, you'll find other article that discuss how controversial the shrine is. Here is another:

http://japanfocus.org/-john-junkerman/3198



Btw, there are SO MANY people in Japan who think Yasukuni is bs. And, some people don't really care about Yasukuni one way or the other but still just want to get along with the rest of Asia. When the media plays up these political tricks, I feel like it just turns people against one another because they falsely assume everyone on "the other side" is against them. Makes me really sad because that isn't the case in any way.



Things are so shitty in Asia right now that it stresses me out like nothing else.

I need a rabbit picture.

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Re: Yasukuni Shrine

Post by Madara »

[quote name='eri' timestamp='1366852274' post='150124']



Btw, please do NOT read Ian Buruma, who is a sensationalist journalist and famous "Japan basher" of the 80s. He is NOT an academic. Sorry Madara. Buruma might be readable but he isn't very sound and his work is very very very problematic.

[/quote]



I had a funny feeling I'd be opening a can of worms by mentioning Buruma. Maybe the fact that he's "NOT an academic" is why I like him. Nor do I care what the official academic position on him is. He actually writes about complex subjects in ways that non-academics can understand. Just because he writes honestly about Japan's behavior and displays a healthy skepticism doesn't make him a "Japan basher." What was valuable for me about his book, "Inventing Japan," is that he explained the conflicts between different factions in Japan during the period at the dawn of Japan's modernization (1853-1868) in a way that finally made some sense to me. I've always been baffled by films about the Shinsengumi and a series like "Rurouni Kenshin" because I couldn't figure out who to root for. Who were the good guys here? Who were the ones pushing for relations with the West? Well, it was never that easy and could never be boiled down to a "good guys/bad guys" narrative and I was foolish to even try. Basically, nobody really wanted to open up to the west. The main conflict was between those who supported the Shogun and those who supported the Emperor. The decision to modernize was basically a survival mechanism on the part of those who won the civil war (the pro-Emperor factions). If they didn't, they'd be swallowed up by one or more of the western powers. Buruma's book explained a lot of stuff to me that hadn't truly registered before and identified a lot of key players. Granted, it's a slim book and needs to be supplemented by more extensive reading by other authors, but at least I got a handle on which directions to go in. He also provides a very helpful and detailed bibliography that I used to add to my library of books on Japan. As soon as I finished the book, I went down to Strand Books (a sprawling used book store in Manhattan) and then to Book Off and Kinokuniya to load up on some of the books he recommends. I couldn't find Marius Jansen's "The Making of Modern Japan," so I had to order that from Amazon. I should add that I've heard Buruma speak at Japan Society here in New York and got to meet him afterwards.
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Re: Yasukuni Shrine

Post by eri »

[quote name='Madara' timestamp='1366890322' post='150147']

[quote name='eri' timestamp='1366852274' post='150124']



Btw, please do NOT read Ian Buruma, who is a sensationalist journalist and famous "Japan basher" of the 80s. He is NOT an academic. Sorry Madara. Buruma might be readable but he isn't very sound and his work is very very very problematic.

[/quote]



I had a funny feeling I'd be opening a can of worms by mentioning Buruma. Maybe the fact that he's "NOT an academic" is why I like him. Nor do I care what the official academic position on him is. He actually writes about complex subjects in ways that non-academics can understand. Just because he writes honestly about Japan's behavior and displays a healthy skepticism doesn't make him a "Japan basher."

[/quote]



<img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' /> It isn't so much that he isn't a card carrying member of the academic elite. There are so many amazing journalists whose books have made a huge impact across all disciplines (Naomi Klein off the top of my head). The problem with Buruma is that his works are not really rigorous while still being polemic.



You should read Masao Miyoshi's criticism of Buruma in his book Off Center (on google books). It is an old book, but fun to read and is really characteristically bitchy (making it even more fun).



Here are my 3 big issues with him



1. Much of his analysis is skewed by a flawed foundation: his weird, fetishistic stereotyping of Japanese culture as a whole. It is like he read Ruth Benedict and ran with it, screaming "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" to 60 years of criticism. It is always the hidden punch line to his criticism. "There is [this problem/this phenom] that many have observed...and it comes from [this stereotypical, monolithic aspect of Japanese culture/people/society." Hence, I can't take his analysis seriously.



2. He over-simplifies to the point of being dishonest. He comes to grand conclusions but ones based on sloppy research, with no attention given to foundational problems and a real unethical laziness in methodology.



3. The fact that he has published SO MUCH on SO MANY things mostly demonstrates that he is a good writer, who can publish diligently and capture a reading audience. He is well suited for those weird, historical-fiction novels that he produces all the time. But, he isn't a reliable source and the fact that he tries to sell himself as one makes my blood boil.



He is like a second year college student who picks out 5 vetted sources on a topic and then publishes his semester term paper while crowing he is an expert. He is like that guy who did JET for 2 years, picked up a Japanese girlfriend, and now calls himself the expert on "Japanese culture." I hate that guy. I really do.
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