[quote="Mizura"]
I suppose one advantage of their being no finalists is that no bad members got added this time.
[/quote]
Kind of sad, but, I am glad nobody was selected because of this reason.
Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
Moderators: testacles_4, Shoujo Q, momoirosaya
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
[quote="Pi Miki"]
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Mizura" data-cid="197780" data-time="1464744155">
<div>
I suppose one advantage of their being no finalists is that no bad members got added this time.
[/quote]
Kind of sad, but, I am glad nobody was selected because of this reason.
</div>
</blockquote>
It's fucking pathetic that we've come to the point where our silver lining to another failed audition is that no shitty girls were added. Because we just expect them to be shitty now.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Mizura" data-cid="197780" data-time="1464744155">
<div>
I suppose one advantage of their being no finalists is that no bad members got added this time.
[/quote]
Kind of sad, but, I am glad nobody was selected because of this reason.
</div>
</blockquote>
It's fucking pathetic that we've come to the point where our silver lining to another failed audition is that no shitty girls were added. Because we just expect them to be shitty now.
Jpope On Jpop! blog
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
Auditions haven't really picked great girl for a long time, I think. The last great addition was..... 6th gen. They had Miki and Reina from off the bat, 50% good generation. My following observation is based on when they joined, not where they are later/now.
I typed my thoughts out but spoilered them because it became so long and because it's kind of off topic lol.
I want to go back to Platinum already.I typed my thoughts out but spoilered them because it became so long and because it's kind of off topic lol.
Last edited by MejraThea on Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Solarblade
- ANGERME
- Posts: 1510
- Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 6:06 pm
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
^ To be fair Mikitty wasn't exactly a part of that audition, if I remember right, plus she was already established as it is in H!P so she already had a foot above...but yeah, Reina was decent while Sayu and Eri had to work where they got.
I was reading up on the finalists of the past auditions and all I can say is that UF/Tsunku/whoever missed on a lot of vocal talent, I feel like it's what Momusu needs (we have the personality, the dancing is slightly going away from the whole formation thing, we just need the backbone now).
I kind of just wished they would've added a couple solid KSS after cutting the audition out personally.
I was reading up on the finalists of the past auditions and all I can say is that UF/Tsunku/whoever missed on a lot of vocal talent, I feel like it's what Momusu needs (we have the personality, the dancing is slightly going away from the whole formation thing, we just need the backbone now).
I kind of just wished they would've added a couple solid KSS after cutting the audition out personally.
Last edited by Solarblade on Tue May 31, 2016 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hey
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
It's not that auditions aren't attracting any talent, UFP just decides to put the talent into other groups, and while this is good for other groups since their all (except Tsubaki) very strong now. They just need to learn to do it for MM again or get better management.
Formerly Mizura
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
[quote="Solarblade"]
^ To be fair Mikitty wasn't exactly a part of that audition, if I remember right, plus she was already established as it is in H!P so she already had a foot above...but yeah, Reina was decent while Sayu and Eri had to work where they got.
[/quote]
That's a good point that I forgot, thank you!
^ To be fair Mikitty wasn't exactly a part of that audition, if I remember right, plus she was already established as it is in H!P so she already had a foot above...but yeah, Reina was decent while Sayu and Eri had to work where they got.
[/quote]
That's a good point that I forgot, thank you!
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
[quote="Thea"]
Auditions haven't really picked great girl for a long time, I think. The last great addition was..... 6th gen. They had Miki and Reina from off the bat, 50% good generation. My following observation is based on when they joined, not where they are later/now.
I typed my thoughts out but spoilered them because it became so long and because it's kind of off topic lol.
[/quote]
<div>It's not really OT at this point.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Your run down really magnifies the point I made a couple days ago about how few girls from Koharu on forward live up to their hype/potential. I'll take that a step further and ask which of those members have even grown or improved appreciably since joining MM? A year ago I would have said Haruka, but after this last single I'm unsure. Mizuki has improved, but should probably be better. Sato might be the only one to show consistent, discernible improvement, but I still hold my breath when she opens her mouth to sing.</div>
Auditions haven't really picked great girl for a long time, I think. The last great addition was..... 6th gen. They had Miki and Reina from off the bat, 50% good generation. My following observation is based on when they joined, not where they are later/now.
I typed my thoughts out but spoilered them because it became so long and because it's kind of off topic lol.
[/quote]
<div>It's not really OT at this point.
</div><div> </div>
<div>Your run down really magnifies the point I made a couple days ago about how few girls from Koharu on forward live up to their hype/potential. I'll take that a step further and ask which of those members have even grown or improved appreciably since joining MM? A year ago I would have said Haruka, but after this last single I'm unsure. Mizuki has improved, but should probably be better. Sato might be the only one to show consistent, discernible improvement, but I still hold my breath when she opens her mouth to sing.</div>
Jpope On Jpop! blog
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momoirosaya
- つんく♂
- Posts: 5148
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:21 pm
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
Geez back when MM lost Kamei and Ai-chan was leaving soon I happily boarded the S/mileage ship, then Yuuka left, and I was forcefully thrown overboard and drifted back to Momusu island. Then another ship came by, similar to the one before, but it was called ANGERME. I couldn't decide whether to get on board or stay on the Momusu island. But then is tornado called 12th gen happened and the island was a mess, so I boarded the ANGERME ship. Unfortunately we've lost some great members like Maro and just recently my dear beloved Meimi, but the ship sails on!! Onward ho ANGERME! Honestly I want the good KSS, like Saori and Ruru to join Anju now.
Also MM had so much potential before 12th gen came along, I'm so sad to see them become such a boring group again. They've got girls with personality, but thy don't seem to really let them express it. Also I wish that they would really take on the role of "characters" more. Like yeah Momochi and Sayu annoyed people, but they got their faces out there, created great variety material, and got themselves steady work. It's no good just to be another pretty face for idols unless your Hashimoto Kanna, especially when you don't really have any dancing or singing skills to back it up. So many good MM characters came out them doing comedy shows (Utaban, Haromoni, etc.) Goddammit why won't H!P listen to us and give us a good TV show again!!!!!
Also MM had so much potential before 12th gen came along, I'm so sad to see them become such a boring group again. They've got girls with personality, but thy don't seem to really let them express it. Also I wish that they would really take on the role of "characters" more. Like yeah Momochi and Sayu annoyed people, but they got their faces out there, created great variety material, and got themselves steady work. It's no good just to be another pretty face for idols unless your Hashimoto Kanna, especially when you don't really have any dancing or singing skills to back it up. So many good MM characters came out them doing comedy shows (Utaban, Haromoni, etc.) Goddammit why won't H!P listen to us and give us a good TV show again!!!!!
rikako♡eripon♡airi
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
I'm expecting Saori to get the Karin treatment and be put into a new group whenever one rolls around. I don't think they'd have her do all that solo stuff just to throw her into an already made group.
<p class="bbc_center">
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
For what it's worth, it seems that people are pretty disappointed with the latest batch of "transfer students" in Sakura Gakuin too. I hardly follow the group, but just from monitoring Babymetal-related places it seems to be a general consensus that they are bland, boring, and talentless.
Whether it's true and whether it could be a sign of a trend when coupled with MM situation, I don't know.
Also one thing that's often forgotten in the West is that idols involve much more than just songs and performances, in fact music very often come second if not last in the whole "idol experience". We were very lucky to have some extremely talented musicians behind Hellopro as producers, composers, arrangers, but perhaps the focus has shifted now. Perhaps someone ran the numbers and figured out that quality music and performance does not sell but other aspects of idols do, so why bother. Of course from here we don't see the rest of the picture so we don't how MM really compares in the domestic idol market, which is why we only notice the dip in the aspects that can be experienced remotely. And Western market has never been a priority for Hellopro.
If you compare this to Babymetal, who are still technically idols, you can see the vast difference in their approach and focus on different things as at this point BM is to a vast degree focused on appealing to the Western mainstream audience.
Whether it's true and whether it could be a sign of a trend when coupled with MM situation, I don't know.
Also one thing that's often forgotten in the West is that idols involve much more than just songs and performances, in fact music very often come second if not last in the whole "idol experience". We were very lucky to have some extremely talented musicians behind Hellopro as producers, composers, arrangers, but perhaps the focus has shifted now. Perhaps someone ran the numbers and figured out that quality music and performance does not sell but other aspects of idols do, so why bother. Of course from here we don't see the rest of the picture so we don't how MM really compares in the domestic idol market, which is why we only notice the dip in the aspects that can be experienced remotely. And Western market has never been a priority for Hellopro.
If you compare this to Babymetal, who are still technically idols, you can see the vast difference in their approach and focus on different things as at this point BM is to a vast degree focused on appealing to the Western mainstream audience.
⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯
#whereisyui #ゆいちゃん
~breathe your last and fall into my eternal embrace~
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
It wouldn't be that hard for them to get their personalities out more. The other idol group I follow a lot, Alice Project puts out daily videos which allow the girls to showcase their personalities through events, daily happenings and what not. Most of the videos also get subbed to English even if it isn't the best it's still understandable. Hello! Project doesn't even have to do something daily like that, just include some weekly segments on H!S. If an indies group can afford to do it, I don't see why a major idol agency can't.
Formerly Mizura
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
[quote="aine"]
Also one thing that's often forgotten in the West is that idols involve much more than just songs and performances, in fact music very often come second if not last in the whole "idol experience".
[/quote]
Very true. I guess this is also the reason why the Japanese fandom seems to be quite fond of Ogata Haruna and Maria. Maria has a very obvious crybaby/hyper character and can live off her character, especially if she keeps on building it. Ogata, who is a worse singer than Sayumi and a worse dancer than Iikubo Haruna (and these two are really at a very low level) is probably the most or second most popular 12ki because she's just so fun to watch. She can entertain. Maria especially entertains on stage. Not that she's got great stage presence, but it's just fun to watch her losing herself in her performance lol.
This might also be the reason why they aren't as fond of Miki, who seems to be more popular in the West because she's probably the most talented 12ki. She's pretty bland both in photo shootings and on stage, as well not as entertaining as she has no stick except for speaking English (or at least that's what they make her stick).
Still doesn't excuse the whole Tsubaki situation then lmao.
Also one thing that's often forgotten in the West is that idols involve much more than just songs and performances, in fact music very often come second if not last in the whole "idol experience".
[/quote]
Very true. I guess this is also the reason why the Japanese fandom seems to be quite fond of Ogata Haruna and Maria. Maria has a very obvious crybaby/hyper character and can live off her character, especially if she keeps on building it. Ogata, who is a worse singer than Sayumi and a worse dancer than Iikubo Haruna (and these two are really at a very low level) is probably the most or second most popular 12ki because she's just so fun to watch. She can entertain. Maria especially entertains on stage. Not that she's got great stage presence, but it's just fun to watch her losing herself in her performance lol.
This might also be the reason why they aren't as fond of Miki, who seems to be more popular in the West because she's probably the most talented 12ki. She's pretty bland both in photo shootings and on stage, as well not as entertaining as she has no stick except for speaking English (or at least that's what they make her stick).
Still doesn't excuse the whole Tsubaki situation then lmao.
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TicTacAnyone
- ANGERME
- Posts: 2519
- Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:38 am
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
I just imagine my little Danbara... Auditioning for MM 3 times and failing, lol. But no, really, I feel worst for the KSS who are trying so hard to debut... I don't understand how you can have no winners when you watch and see the great talent--both stage-wise and personality-wise--and skip it. I wanted 13th gen to be the reason 12th gen pushes themselves, too.
RIP DANBARA, KAGA AND ONODA. Watch Kaga leave, lol.
RIP DANBARA, KAGA AND ONODA. Watch Kaga leave, lol.
Last edited by TicTacAnyone on Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
What does the "full idol experience" consist of wrt to the members of MM?
Jpope On Jpop! blog
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
Just a friendly reminder. 12th gen. had two auditions. The first of which all girls ended up in the training program. (I hope they do this with finalists from the 1st 13th gen audition.)
Of that pool, they chose Akane in the 2nd 12th gen audition. While I'm a little sour. I love Funaki and Yamaki and think they shine better in Country Girls as opposed to being overshadowed in Morning Musume.
Kisora in Tsubaki. Meh.
But Ruru... still waiting on you girl. I feel like she started off strong but whatever training they are putting her through is breaking her. From the Kenshuusei Test clip they showed on H!S, she's just, not the same.
Yokogawa Yumei. She's never going anywhere anytime soon. (I forgot she was even in the 1st 12th gen pool of finalists.)
Of that pool, they chose Akane in the 2nd 12th gen audition. While I'm a little sour. I love Funaki and Yamaki and think they shine better in Country Girls as opposed to being overshadowed in Morning Musume.
Kisora in Tsubaki. Meh.
But Ruru... still waiting on you girl. I feel like she started off strong but whatever training they are putting her through is breaking her. From the Kenshuusei Test clip they showed on H!S, she's just, not the same.
Yokogawa Yumei. She's never going anywhere anytime soon. (I forgot she was even in the 1st 12th gen pool of finalists.)
This is a place where a signature goes. Enjoy some Airi instead.
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JPope" data-cid="197837" data-time="1464816460">What does the "full idol experience" consist of wrt to the members of MM?</blockquote>I'm starting to wonder. There has to be more to that than the 5 second handshakes and 10 second cheki sessions since domestic wotas continue to buy into it.
There are blogs and radio shows I suppose. And perhaps some small appearances in media that don't even filter through to the West.
There are blogs and radio shows I suppose. And perhaps some small appearances in media that don't even filter through to the West.
⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯
#whereisyui #ゆいちゃん
~breathe your last and fall into my eternal embrace~
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
[quote="aine"]
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JPope" data-cid="197837" data-time="1464816460">
What does the "full idol experience" consist of wrt to the members of MM?
</blockquote>
I'm starting to wonder. There has to be more to that than the 5 second handshakes and 10 second cheki sessions since domestic wotas continue to buy into it.
There are blogs and radio shows I suppose. And perhaps some small appearances in media that don't even filter through to the West.
[/quote]
That's about what I figured. Handshakes. Blogs. Radio shows. And occasional media appearances. These are more important than their music? Let's test that theory and create and idol "group" that doesn't sing or release music of any sort. How successful do you suppose their blogs, radio shows, handshake events and media appearances would be? I don't know, maybe such a thing exists and is successful. It wouldn't shock me, tbh.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JPope" data-cid="197837" data-time="1464816460">
What does the "full idol experience" consist of wrt to the members of MM?
</blockquote>
I'm starting to wonder. There has to be more to that than the 5 second handshakes and 10 second cheki sessions since domestic wotas continue to buy into it.
There are blogs and radio shows I suppose. And perhaps some small appearances in media that don't even filter through to the West.
[/quote]
That's about what I figured. Handshakes. Blogs. Radio shows. And occasional media appearances. These are more important than their music? Let's test that theory and create and idol "group" that doesn't sing or release music of any sort. How successful do you suppose their blogs, radio shows, handshake events and media appearances would be? I don't know, maybe such a thing exists and is successful. It wouldn't shock me, tbh.
Jpope On Jpop! blog
-
Solarblade
- ANGERME
- Posts: 1510
- Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 6:06 pm
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
[quote="Shoujo Q"]
Just a friendly reminder. 12th gen. had two auditions. The first of which all girls ended up in the training program. (I hope they do this with finalists from the 1st 13th gen audition.)
Of that pool, they chose Akane in the 2nd 12th gen audition. While I'm a little sour. I love Funaki and Yamaki and think they shine better in Country Girls as opposed to being overshadowed in Morning Musume.
Kisora in Tsubaki. Meh.
But Ruru... still waiting on you girl. I feel like she started off strong but whatever training they are putting her through is breaking her. From the Kenshuusei Test clip they showed on H!S, she's just, not the same.
Yokogawa Yumei. She's never going anywhere anytime soon. (I forgot she was even in the 1st 12th gen pool of finalists.)
[/quote]
Add on that the 2nd audition brought on more talent (well to some extent)
Moe who definitely sounds really nice (even though she did technically win the ANGERME auditions (which thinking about it feels almost like a failure, but at the same time not?)
Mai & Uta (though the latter quit)
and Kiki and Ami for Tsubaki though Ami still isn't that great...
Though I'm curious, did Chisaki and Saori do these auditions too?
Just a friendly reminder. 12th gen. had two auditions. The first of which all girls ended up in the training program. (I hope they do this with finalists from the 1st 13th gen audition.)
Of that pool, they chose Akane in the 2nd 12th gen audition. While I'm a little sour. I love Funaki and Yamaki and think they shine better in Country Girls as opposed to being overshadowed in Morning Musume.
Kisora in Tsubaki. Meh.
But Ruru... still waiting on you girl. I feel like she started off strong but whatever training they are putting her through is breaking her. From the Kenshuusei Test clip they showed on H!S, she's just, not the same.
Yokogawa Yumei. She's never going anywhere anytime soon. (I forgot she was even in the 1st 12th gen pool of finalists.)
[/quote]
Add on that the 2nd audition brought on more talent (well to some extent)
Moe who definitely sounds really nice (even though she did technically win the ANGERME auditions (which thinking about it feels almost like a failure, but at the same time not?)
Mai & Uta (though the latter quit)
and Kiki and Ami for Tsubaki though Ami still isn't that great...
Though I'm curious, did Chisaki and Saori do these auditions too?
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
Saori was in an indies group, failed the second 12th gen audition, then applied for kenshuusei.
Chisaki failed the same audition and is also from an indies group. I don't consider her a missed opportunity talent-wise though.
Chisaki failed the same audition and is also from an indies group. I don't consider her a missed opportunity talent-wise though.
Last edited by Anderei on Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
<p class="bbc_center">
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JPope" data-cid="197841" data-time="1464829029">
That's about what I figured. Handshakes. Blogs. Radio shows. And occasional media appearances. These are more important than their music?</blockquote>
Probably not for groups, but they're pretty important for individual idols. Reason why Yuka is more popular than Sayuki, she's quite popular for her event character.
I do agree though that they need some stage talent. To me, MM has become rather uninteresting on stage because they have a few members that are ok but nobody really shines. ANGERME is pretty constant as a group, Kobushi is getting there Country Girls aren't good singers but they work their cute stick quite well.
MM is just there. Doing their stuff.
That's about what I figured. Handshakes. Blogs. Radio shows. And occasional media appearances. These are more important than their music?</blockquote>
Probably not for groups, but they're pretty important for individual idols. Reason why Yuka is more popular than Sayuki, she's quite popular for her event character.
I do agree though that they need some stage talent. To me, MM has become rather uninteresting on stage because they have a few members that are ok but nobody really shines. ANGERME is pretty constant as a group, Kobushi is getting there Country Girls aren't good singers but they work their cute stick quite well.
MM is just there. Doing their stuff.
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
I understand that those things are important, and I would think they are just as important for groups as they are individual idols (not that there are many solo idols in Japan anymore, but that's another topic). My point is that you don't have a reason for the blogs, radio shows, handshakes, media appearances, etc if not for the music. Those things all flow from the music, not the other way around. So I guess the question UFP is asking wrt to MM is, what is the least amount of effort that must be put into the musical end to make all of the those other things possible?
Jpope On Jpop! blog
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
Some of those translation sites would have me believe that the music is still important to them. A lot of H!P wota absolutely worship Tsunku after all.
Its the ability of their idols to do a good job delivering that music to them in a live capacity that has lost importance. And it's not as if that's new within the last year. As far as MM as a whole is concerned, 9th and 10th gen are massive duds in this respect as well.
Plus I think idol culture demands that you go all out even if this single happens to be one you don't like. You can't vote with your wallet if it puts your idols at risk. Not that it would for MM. They could be selling 40k again and still wouldn't be in trouble because at the end of the day that's still a good number for idols.
Its the ability of their idols to do a good job delivering that music to them in a live capacity that has lost importance. And it's not as if that's new within the last year. As far as MM as a whole is concerned, 9th and 10th gen are massive duds in this respect as well.
Plus I think idol culture demands that you go all out even if this single happens to be one you don't like. You can't vote with your wallet if it puts your idols at risk. Not that it would for MM. They could be selling 40k again and still wouldn't be in trouble because at the end of the day that's still a good number for idols.
Last edited by Anderei on Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
<p class="bbc_center">
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Mizura" data-cid="197819" data-time="1464802471">If an indies group can afford to do it, I don't see why a major idol agency can't.</blockquote>Their size could be exactly the issue. Indies can afford to do things on a whim, while with major companies you get kilometers of red tape and the general corporate hell where all good fresh ideas wither and die.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JPope" data-cid="197841" data-time="1464829029">Let's test that theory and create and idol "group" that doesn't sing or release music of any sort. How successful do you suppose their blogs, radio shows, handshake events and media appearances would be? I don't know, maybe such a thing exists and is successful. It wouldn't shock me, tbh.</blockquote>I would be surprised if it didn't already exist!
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JPope" data-cid="197867" data-time="1464887375">My point is that you don't have a reason for the blogs, radio shows, handshakes, media appearances, etc if not for the music. Those things all flow from the music, not the other way around.</blockquote>I'm afraid you might be fundamentally wrong about that. It will differ from one group and agency to another, but, at least in the indie idols world, I feel that music is no longer the foundation they build upon, but rather icing on the cake. A (still) necessary icing, but only icing nonetheless - just another thing in the mixed bag of activities that they do. As long as you have a concept or gimmick for the group, the members who individually and collectively fit enough bills to have wotas relate to them, and a strong enough illusion of interaction and accessibility (blogs, twitter, etc.), then it seems to be enough for people. Also majority of wotas seem perfectly aware that this is a game and they willingly participate in it and allow themselves to get played, for whatever kind of gratification they get out of it. And when someone actually ends up believing the illusion is real, things turn bad.
At least that's my impression after following the indie idol market much more closely over the last year or two. I might be talking entirely out of my ass though.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JPope" data-cid="197841" data-time="1464829029">Let's test that theory and create and idol "group" that doesn't sing or release music of any sort. How successful do you suppose their blogs, radio shows, handshake events and media appearances would be? I don't know, maybe such a thing exists and is successful. It wouldn't shock me, tbh.</blockquote>I would be surprised if it didn't already exist!
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JPope" data-cid="197867" data-time="1464887375">My point is that you don't have a reason for the blogs, radio shows, handshakes, media appearances, etc if not for the music. Those things all flow from the music, not the other way around.</blockquote>I'm afraid you might be fundamentally wrong about that. It will differ from one group and agency to another, but, at least in the indie idols world, I feel that music is no longer the foundation they build upon, but rather icing on the cake. A (still) necessary icing, but only icing nonetheless - just another thing in the mixed bag of activities that they do. As long as you have a concept or gimmick for the group, the members who individually and collectively fit enough bills to have wotas relate to them, and a strong enough illusion of interaction and accessibility (blogs, twitter, etc.), then it seems to be enough for people. Also majority of wotas seem perfectly aware that this is a game and they willingly participate in it and allow themselves to get played, for whatever kind of gratification they get out of it. And when someone actually ends up believing the illusion is real, things turn bad.
At least that's my impression after following the indie idol market much more closely over the last year or two. I might be talking entirely out of my ass though.
⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯
#whereisyui #ゆいちゃん
~breathe your last and fall into my eternal embrace~
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
[quote="aine"]
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JPope" data-cid="197867" data-time="1464887375">
My point is that you don't have a reason for the blogs, radio shows, handshakes, media appearances, etc if not for the music. Those things all flow from the music, not the other way around.
</blockquote>
I'm afraid you might be fundamentally wrong about that. It will differ from one group and agency to another, but, at least in the indie idols world, I feel that music is no longer the foundation they build upon, but rather icing on the cake. A (still) necessary icing, but only icing nonetheless - just another thing in the mixed bag of activities that they do.[/quote]
Would've been my answer too, therefore I'm not going to repeat that.
After all, idols are a niche, wota are seen as on the same level as otaku. Of course music is still important, especially coming from an H!P point of few because H!P had a lot of really great music, but I feel the music (in general, but also in presentation) is not as important anymore. It's more about how cute an idol is. Because if I've seen a trend in the last 4-5 years it's that if you aren't considered "cute" by the majority of wota, you won't make it far.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JPope" data-cid="197867" data-time="1464887375">
My point is that you don't have a reason for the blogs, radio shows, handshakes, media appearances, etc if not for the music. Those things all flow from the music, not the other way around.
</blockquote>
I'm afraid you might be fundamentally wrong about that. It will differ from one group and agency to another, but, at least in the indie idols world, I feel that music is no longer the foundation they build upon, but rather icing on the cake. A (still) necessary icing, but only icing nonetheless - just another thing in the mixed bag of activities that they do.[/quote]
Would've been my answer too, therefore I'm not going to repeat that.
After all, idols are a niche, wota are seen as on the same level as otaku. Of course music is still important, especially coming from an H!P point of few because H!P had a lot of really great music, but I feel the music (in general, but also in presentation) is not as important anymore. It's more about how cute an idol is. Because if I've seen a trend in the last 4-5 years it's that if you aren't considered "cute" by the majority of wota, you won't make it far.
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
Yeah, but that's the same for any industry. The idol world is far more lenient in terms of looks, but even then, the most popular ones are all still at least somewhat conventionally attractive, even if they'd never be considered modelesque beauties. That has always been true.
<p class="bbc_center">
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
[quote="aine"]
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Mizura" data-cid="197819" data-time="1464802471"></blockquote>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JPope" data-cid="197867" data-time="1464887375">
My point is that you don't have a reason for the blogs, radio shows, handshakes, media appearances, etc if not for the music. Those things all flow from the music, not the other way around.
</blockquote>
I'm afraid you might be fundamentally wrong about that. It will differ from one group and agency to another, but, at least in the indie idols world, I feel that music is no longer the foundation they build upon, but rather icing on the cake. A (still) necessary icing, but only icing nonetheless - just another thing in the mixed bag of activities that they do. As long as you have a concept or gimmick for the group, the members who individually and collectively fit enough bills to have wotas relate to them, and a strong enough illusion of interaction and accessibility (blogs, twitter, etc.), then it seems to be enough for people. Also majority of wotas seem perfectly aware that this is a game and they willingly participate in it and allow themselves to get played, for whatever kind of gratification they get out of it. And when someone actually ends up believing the illusion is real, things turn bad.
At least that's my impression after following the indie idol market much more closely over the last year or two. I might be talking entirely out of my ass though.
[/quote]
Agreed, which is why I followed the quoted part with this:
[quote="JPope"]
So I guess the question UFP is asking wrt to MM is, what is the least amount of effort that must be put into the musical end to make all of the those other things possible?
[/quote]
I get that the music is more important to me and that my desire for a more musically talented MM is purely selfish. But there is a point of diminishing returns when you focus on all aspects of the idol experience to the detriment of the music. As you said, indies groups are free to do pretty much whatever, as there are far fewer resources and invested in an indies group, nor is there a calcified managerial culture to break free from. But MM is not an indies group, and I don't think it's a coincidence that their 2012 resurgence happened at the exact same time that their music drastically improved.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Mizura" data-cid="197819" data-time="1464802471"></blockquote>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JPope" data-cid="197867" data-time="1464887375">
My point is that you don't have a reason for the blogs, radio shows, handshakes, media appearances, etc if not for the music. Those things all flow from the music, not the other way around.
</blockquote>
I'm afraid you might be fundamentally wrong about that. It will differ from one group and agency to another, but, at least in the indie idols world, I feel that music is no longer the foundation they build upon, but rather icing on the cake. A (still) necessary icing, but only icing nonetheless - just another thing in the mixed bag of activities that they do. As long as you have a concept or gimmick for the group, the members who individually and collectively fit enough bills to have wotas relate to them, and a strong enough illusion of interaction and accessibility (blogs, twitter, etc.), then it seems to be enough for people. Also majority of wotas seem perfectly aware that this is a game and they willingly participate in it and allow themselves to get played, for whatever kind of gratification they get out of it. And when someone actually ends up believing the illusion is real, things turn bad.
At least that's my impression after following the indie idol market much more closely over the last year or two. I might be talking entirely out of my ass though.
[/quote]
Agreed, which is why I followed the quoted part with this:
[quote="JPope"]
So I guess the question UFP is asking wrt to MM is, what is the least amount of effort that must be put into the musical end to make all of the those other things possible?
[/quote]
I get that the music is more important to me and that my desire for a more musically talented MM is purely selfish. But there is a point of diminishing returns when you focus on all aspects of the idol experience to the detriment of the music. As you said, indies groups are free to do pretty much whatever, as there are far fewer resources and invested in an indies group, nor is there a calcified managerial culture to break free from. But MM is not an indies group, and I don't think it's a coincidence that their 2012 resurgence happened at the exact same time that their music drastically improved.
Jpope On Jpop! blog
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
It's not, their resurgence coincides with the resurgence of idols in general. And now that idols are back on the out (a lot of big groups got cut from Kohaku last year), so are MM. Even groups like AKB and MomoClo are not as in favor as they've been previously. And groups like SKE and NMB are seeing their lowest sales in years.
Last edited by Anderei on Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
<p class="bbc_center">
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
[quote="Anderei"]
Some of those translation sites would have me believe that the music is still important to them. A lot of H!P wota absolutely worship Tsunku after all.
Its the ability of their idols to do a good job delivering that music to them in a live capacity that has lost importance. And it's not as if that's new within the last year. As far as MM as a whole is concerned, 9th and 10th gen are massive duds in this respect as well.
Plus I think idol culture demands that you go all out even if this single happens to be one you don't like. You can't vote with your wallet if it puts your idols at risk. Not that it would for MM. They could be selling 40k again and still wouldn't be in trouble because at the end of the day that's still a good number for idols.
[/quote]
<div>Oh, I agree that the 9th & 10th gens have been duds. I've been complaining about this going back to Koharu's selection. I think that that, Sakura excluded, every generation from the 7th through the 12th have been duds from a musical talent perspective. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>The difference for the 7th through 9th gens is that they joined a group that already had several good singers who were seasoned idol vets, so their musical deficiencies were masked. The 9th and 10th joined at the bottom of the group's popularity, so they went relatively noticed by the greater public. The problem is that each of those generations contained fewer good singers than they did poor, to the point where MM's talent was heavily weighted toward the girls who were on track to graduate sooner.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The group had been culled of nearly all of its legit talent by the time the Sakura joined, and -- musically speaking -- was stinky garbage dump when the 12th joined. The difference with the 12th gen is that they joined following a period of resurgence for MM, both musically and in general popularity. (I contend that the latter is a result of the former). That UFP would further dilute the talent pool during MMs most popular era in a decade seems... unwise.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Sadly, I think you're correct that everyone involved would be happy with 40K sales, because why work hard for 140K when 40K is enough to keep your job?</div>
Some of those translation sites would have me believe that the music is still important to them. A lot of H!P wota absolutely worship Tsunku after all.
Its the ability of their idols to do a good job delivering that music to them in a live capacity that has lost importance. And it's not as if that's new within the last year. As far as MM as a whole is concerned, 9th and 10th gen are massive duds in this respect as well.
Plus I think idol culture demands that you go all out even if this single happens to be one you don't like. You can't vote with your wallet if it puts your idols at risk. Not that it would for MM. They could be selling 40k again and still wouldn't be in trouble because at the end of the day that's still a good number for idols.
[/quote]
<div>Oh, I agree that the 9th & 10th gens have been duds. I've been complaining about this going back to Koharu's selection. I think that that, Sakura excluded, every generation from the 7th through the 12th have been duds from a musical talent perspective. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>The difference for the 7th through 9th gens is that they joined a group that already had several good singers who were seasoned idol vets, so their musical deficiencies were masked. The 9th and 10th joined at the bottom of the group's popularity, so they went relatively noticed by the greater public. The problem is that each of those generations contained fewer good singers than they did poor, to the point where MM's talent was heavily weighted toward the girls who were on track to graduate sooner.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The group had been culled of nearly all of its legit talent by the time the Sakura joined, and -- musically speaking -- was stinky garbage dump when the 12th joined. The difference with the 12th gen is that they joined following a period of resurgence for MM, both musically and in general popularity. (I contend that the latter is a result of the former). That UFP would further dilute the talent pool during MMs most popular era in a decade seems... unwise.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Sadly, I think you're correct that everyone involved would be happy with 40K sales, because why work hard for 140K when 40K is enough to keep your job?</div>
Jpope On Jpop! blog
Re: Morning Musume '16 Shinseiki Auditions
[quote="Anderei"]
It's not, their resurgence coincides with the resurgence of idols in general. And now that idols are back on the out (a lot of big groups got cut from Kohaku last year), so are MM. Even groups like AKB and MomoClo are not as in favor as they've been previously. And groups like SKE and NMB are seeing their lowest sales in years.
[/quote]
The 48 groups were due to experience a drop in popularity based on Brand Fatigue alone, which is partially the same reason that MM fell off the map. No group dominates forever, and old fans of the 48s are complaining about how the music has sucked for a couple of years now (sound familiar?) I don't think an old brand like Morning Musume would have had even close to the rebound they experienced (sustaining 3X their previous sales over a three year period) had they continued with the tired, old sound they had been beating into the ground for five years before OTT, overall idol resurgence or not. Music matters, even for idols.
It's not, their resurgence coincides with the resurgence of idols in general. And now that idols are back on the out (a lot of big groups got cut from Kohaku last year), so are MM. Even groups like AKB and MomoClo are not as in favor as they've been previously. And groups like SKE and NMB are seeing their lowest sales in years.
[/quote]
The 48 groups were due to experience a drop in popularity based on Brand Fatigue alone, which is partially the same reason that MM fell off the map. No group dominates forever, and old fans of the 48s are complaining about how the music has sucked for a couple of years now (sound familiar?) I don't think an old brand like Morning Musume would have had even close to the rebound they experienced (sustaining 3X their previous sales over a three year period) had they continued with the tired, old sound they had been beating into the ground for five years before OTT, overall idol resurgence or not. Music matters, even for idols.
Jpope On Jpop! blog