[quote="Ap2000"]
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="arcobaleno" data-cid="196849" data-time="1461166441">
Konno, for example.
</blockquote>
Probably not the best example, since some may say Konno has always and will always be boring.
[/quote]
I used to be one of those, but she eventually carved out niche for herself. I think it was a matter of simply becoming comfortable being an idol, and also being herself. When you're announced as having been added to the group because you were the worst at everything, that's got to leave a scar, and while she never became good at singing or dancing, she did become quite good at variety shows. I think her top showing in the Mechaike Bakajo Kimatsu Test was the moment she really settled in as a member, because she was finally the best at something. Putting her on Hello!Pro News was the best thing ever for her. I think Konno is the poster child for the theory that idol groups can sustain one or two untalented members so long as they bring something else to the table. I get that many don't agree that Konno brought anything to the table, but I eventually came to like her.
The problem with the 12th gen is that they are basically made up entirely of Asami Konno's, and without the opportunities that Konno had to grow into a solid variety type.
How Would You Help 12th Gen?
Moderators: testacles_4, Shoujo Q, momoirosaya
Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="TicTacAnyone" data-cid="196868" data-time="1461188996"><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JPope" data-cid="196843" data-time="1461129141"><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Molly" data-cid="196839" data-time="1461123065">
I love Maria. She's so spunky and cute and she's beautiful. The other three are whatever. Oharu was on my radar in the beginning when those hilarious photos came out but she's fallen off now. I don't understand where the hype for Miki's voice comes from. She's barely better than her generation mates, and she's worse than Ayumi.</blockquote>
Pretty much. With regards to Miki, any port in a storm, I guess. She's the least stinky of four turds, and to my eyes at least, seems the most comfortable of the four. But she could rupture an Achilles tendon tomorrow and I'd barely notice her absence.
</blockquote>
And boy has she already. I think she's already had 2-3 injuries which have affected her performance. The ones I can list off the top of my head are her hand injury and foot/leg injury. Miki was my favorite 12ki coming in, but she doesn't stand out much to me anymore. I was very excited to see her grow into this great performer.... But I fear her American dance lessons have made her less adaptable to the Japanese idol dances. She does stand out in a bad way during dance shots. She really needs to fix her posture while dancing.
I really would like for 12ki to become more than they are. I wouldn't complain. Their success is far better than any ill-spirited failure others would wish on them. The group *needs* them to be great, for when the time comes for them to lead the group.</blockquote>
Really? It doesn't get any less professional than idol singing and dance lessons.
I love Maria. She's so spunky and cute and she's beautiful. The other three are whatever. Oharu was on my radar in the beginning when those hilarious photos came out but she's fallen off now. I don't understand where the hype for Miki's voice comes from. She's barely better than her generation mates, and she's worse than Ayumi.</blockquote>
Pretty much. With regards to Miki, any port in a storm, I guess. She's the least stinky of four turds, and to my eyes at least, seems the most comfortable of the four. But she could rupture an Achilles tendon tomorrow and I'd barely notice her absence.
</blockquote>
And boy has she already. I think she's already had 2-3 injuries which have affected her performance. The ones I can list off the top of my head are her hand injury and foot/leg injury. Miki was my favorite 12ki coming in, but she doesn't stand out much to me anymore. I was very excited to see her grow into this great performer.... But I fear her American dance lessons have made her less adaptable to the Japanese idol dances. She does stand out in a bad way during dance shots. She really needs to fix her posture while dancing.
I really would like for 12ki to become more than they are. I wouldn't complain. Their success is far better than any ill-spirited failure others would wish on them. The group *needs* them to be great, for when the time comes for them to lead the group.</blockquote>
Really? It doesn't get any less professional than idol singing and dance lessons.
<p class="bbc_center">
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TicTacAnyone
- ANGERME
- Posts: 2519
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Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
[quote="Anderei"]
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="TicTacAnyone" data-cid="196868" data-time="1461188996">
And boy has she already. I think she's already had 2-3 injuries which have affected her performance. The ones I can list off the top of my head are her hand injury and foot/leg injury. Miki was my favorite 12ki coming in, but she doesn't stand out much to me anymore. I was very excited to see her grow into this great performer.... But I fear her American dance lessons have made her less adaptable to the Japanese idol dances. She does stand out in a bad way during dance shots. She really needs to fix her posture while dancing.
I really would like for 12ki to become more than they are. I wouldn't complain. Their success is far better than any ill-spirited failure others would wish on them. The group *needs* them to be great, for when the time comes for them to lead the group.</blockquote>
Really? It doesn't get any less professional than idol singing and dance lessons.
[/quote]
I agree--but when she dances it looks off... And not like Sayashi's or Ayumi's moves. Plus her posture with her shoulders kills me lol.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="TicTacAnyone" data-cid="196868" data-time="1461188996">
And boy has she already. I think she's already had 2-3 injuries which have affected her performance. The ones I can list off the top of my head are her hand injury and foot/leg injury. Miki was my favorite 12ki coming in, but she doesn't stand out much to me anymore. I was very excited to see her grow into this great performer.... But I fear her American dance lessons have made her less adaptable to the Japanese idol dances. She does stand out in a bad way during dance shots. She really needs to fix her posture while dancing.
I really would like for 12ki to become more than they are. I wouldn't complain. Their success is far better than any ill-spirited failure others would wish on them. The group *needs* them to be great, for when the time comes for them to lead the group.</blockquote>
Really? It doesn't get any less professional than idol singing and dance lessons.
[/quote]
I agree--but when she dances it looks off... And not like Sayashi's or Ayumi's moves. Plus her posture with her shoulders kills me lol.
Last edited by TicTacAnyone on Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
Oh, well her posture probably has little to do with her dance instructions. She just looks like a sloucher in general when she sits.
<p class="bbc_center">
Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
Can I have any reference on Miki's bad dancing?
I honestly just noticed I have NEVER put my eyes on any 12ki member during dance parts for more than 2 seconds...
I honestly just noticed I have NEVER put my eyes on any 12ki member during dance parts for more than 2 seconds...
Hey-
TicTacAnyone
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- Posts: 2519
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Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
[quote="Derby"]
Can I have any reference on Miki's bad dancing?
I honestly just noticed I have NEVER put my eyes on any 12ki member during dance parts for more than 2 seconds...
[/quote]
Her moves are pretty much fine in this dance, but her slouchiness is in full effect. She's got the black top and a side ponytail.
Can I have any reference on Miki's bad dancing?
I honestly just noticed I have NEVER put my eyes on any 12ki member during dance parts for more than 2 seconds...
[/quote]
Her moves are pretty much fine in this dance, but her slouchiness is in full effect. She's got the black top and a side ponytail.
Last edited by TicTacAnyone on Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
Watching Emotion in Motion I feel that exposure is the most important thing they can give to 12th gen. Especially in the first few songs (lots of Colorful era and Updated songs) they got no more than a few group lines - as in, groups of 7 people, maybe. The only one that sticks out is Maria who has gotten some of Sayumi's old lines. Akane gets to be on screen a few times as well, surprisingly. I feel like Miki got a few more lines, but she's completely invisible. I'm not even going to talk about Ogata.
This is sad, since these Colorful era songs actually have lots of free lines now, with the departure of Sayumi and Riho. Even if they don't let them sing the big lines, these two still had quite a few duet lines. Even the super easy solos went to the top 4 (Mizuki, Sakura, Ayumi, Masaki), with the exception of OTT's "ah ah ah" which went to Haruka and like two to Maria. Staying with OTT, the "One, paritto..." and "hey baby" lines come to mind, as well as the "ru" at the end of "aishiteru". They gave it to Ayumi. They gave the "i" to Haruka, too. These super easy and super short lines, which we went all wild for because there was nothing more for Ikuta/Kanon/Haruna/(back then) Haruka. These two, especially the "ru" lol, could have been given to one of the 12kis.
What about Sayumi's robo line towards the end of Ai no Gundan? Actually I feel like it was sung by Haruna at one point, right? It's Mizuki's now. The "Stay with me" in Renai Hunter? Sakura, of all people. (I love lines for Sakura, but it's the easiest line in the whole song and they gave it to the best singer.)
It's like the easiest way they could show the 12ki to us, considering how many concerts they're doing and how often they perform these songs, but no.
(Not to mention that this doubles the pressure on the girls with the most lines and Mizuki's voice has already suffered from it.)
I'm gonna rewatch the concert now, with special focus on 12ki.
This is sad, since these Colorful era songs actually have lots of free lines now, with the departure of Sayumi and Riho. Even if they don't let them sing the big lines, these two still had quite a few duet lines. Even the super easy solos went to the top 4 (Mizuki, Sakura, Ayumi, Masaki), with the exception of OTT's "ah ah ah" which went to Haruka and like two to Maria. Staying with OTT, the "One, paritto..." and "hey baby" lines come to mind, as well as the "ru" at the end of "aishiteru". They gave it to Ayumi. They gave the "i" to Haruka, too. These super easy and super short lines, which we went all wild for because there was nothing more for Ikuta/Kanon/Haruna/(back then) Haruka. These two, especially the "ru" lol, could have been given to one of the 12kis.
What about Sayumi's robo line towards the end of Ai no Gundan? Actually I feel like it was sung by Haruna at one point, right? It's Mizuki's now. The "Stay with me" in Renai Hunter? Sakura, of all people. (I love lines for Sakura, but it's the easiest line in the whole song and they gave it to the best singer.)
It's like the easiest way they could show the 12ki to us, considering how many concerts they're doing and how often they perform these songs, but no.
(Not to mention that this doubles the pressure on the girls with the most lines and Mizuki's voice has already suffered from it.)
I'm gonna rewatch the concert now, with special focus on 12ki.
Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
^ I may remember wrong but I think this was the same with 9-10ki
When I became a fan and started watching older performances, I think most of the lines from graduated members went for the 5 platinum girls and none of them for 9ki, maybe some for Riho.
Same with some performances from the platinum era, many lines went for the older girls and not so many for Linlin and Junjun.
I think it's not about 12ki not getting exposure and hence, not improving, it is more about management giving lines and screentime to the already popular members insted of... them.
When I became a fan and started watching older performances, I think most of the lines from graduated members went for the 5 platinum girls and none of them for 9ki, maybe some for Riho.
Same with some performances from the platinum era, many lines went for the older girls and not so many for Linlin and Junjun.
I think it's not about 12ki not getting exposure and hence, not improving, it is more about management giving lines and screentime to the already popular members insted of... them.
HeyRe: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
Yeah, but Riho's lack of inherited lines at that time didn't matter because she was almost a lead singer by the end of that first year and got a bucket-load of solos in every new song henceforth. She has at least one solo line in nearly every song recorded during her tenure, disregarding unit songs. 12th gen not getting any old lines wouldn't matter if the same was happening for them but it's not.
Seeing them live made it obvious why almost everything is going to Sakura and Mizuki (because Ayumi sucks and Masaki is nowhere near consistent enough to warrant being a lead). They're the only two that could be relied on but it doesn't change the fact that they'll eventually leave and that even with lines 12th gen probably don't have the raw talent to ever become that good. They're like Sayumi replacements except no one cares enough to see if maybe they'll be awesome come TEN YEARS from now.
Seeing them live made it obvious why almost everything is going to Sakura and Mizuki (because Ayumi sucks and Masaki is nowhere near consistent enough to warrant being a lead). They're the only two that could be relied on but it doesn't change the fact that they'll eventually leave and that even with lines 12th gen probably don't have the raw talent to ever become that good. They're like Sayumi replacements except no one cares enough to see if maybe they'll be awesome come TEN YEARS from now.
Last edited by Anderei on Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
<p class="bbc_center">
Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
^^ I slightly disagree. While there wasn't much of 9ki in Fantasy DX and Ai Believe (their first two tours), they already had a reasonable amount of spotlight in Ultra Smart (their third tour, as well as 10ki's first).
9ki in Ultra Smart:
In general, it feels like they're just not there. The performances with their senpai puts a hard focus on the older members (except for maybe Miki in the performance with Ayumi and Masaki), differently from, for example, Silver no Udedokei or Suki da na Kimi ga in which Riho and Mizuki were basically equal to Reina and Sayumi.
Of course, it's a personal experience. Maybe others will disagree with me. On the other hand you could say they're simply not good enough to get more, but damn, did Ayumi and Masaki butcher many songs in that concert lol.
9ki in Ultra Smart:
- big lines from Riho and Mizuki in Pyoko Pyoko Ultra
- as already mentioned, Riho getting lines in nearly every song (even album songs); 9ki, too, getting quite an amount of lines in Give me Love, OK YEAH, etc.
- other 9kis in songs with senpai (Otome no Timing with Mitsui, Ikuta and Kanon; Suki da na Kimi ga with Sayumi and Mizuki; Silver no Udedokei with mainly Reina and Riho)
- 10ki's Suki na Senpai, 9ki's Namida Tomaranai Houkago, after that their performance of Genki Pika Pika without senpai
- Maria getting Sayumi's lines in OTT and being in the trio for Mr Moonlight
- smaller solos in recent singles; none of them as big as Riho's or even Mizuki's solos in singles by Ultra Smart
- performances with senpai
In general, it feels like they're just not there. The performances with their senpai puts a hard focus on the older members (except for maybe Miki in the performance with Ayumi and Masaki), differently from, for example, Silver no Udedokei or Suki da na Kimi ga in which Riho and Mizuki were basically equal to Reina and Sayumi.
Of course, it's a personal experience. Maybe others will disagree with me. On the other hand you could say they're simply not good enough to get more, but damn, did Ayumi and Masaki butcher many songs in that concert lol.
Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
It's possible -- and I'm just spit-ballin' here -- that the 12th gen girls just aren't showing enough in practice to warrant a significant increase in lines or exposure. Maybe they just really do suck that bad.
Last edited by JPope on Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jpope On Jpop! blog
Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
Probably, it's something I can imagine management doing rather well. I hope they try helping 12ki work on that.
Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
I think they are just slow growers. In time they will be better but its just gonna take more time. I feel like any girl who came in not the best left better than when she joined. I feel the the opposite can be said for girls who came in good. If they add good girl they are just going to waste their talent and destroy their voices... I think they just need to keep at with these girls and help them be better because I know they can be.
Made by Haru!
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momoirosaya
- つんく♂
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Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
I think what 12th gen also needs is more solid characters. Maria has one, but it seems more her than "character". The most interesting girls aren't afraid to be hated.
rikako♡eripon♡airi
Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
Juan's point really shows the truth here.
Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
[quote="DonJuan"]
The only thing I can add to this is the difference between this 2 situations. All of the songs you mention are album songs, which of course show a lot more from the 9ki since they were divided into groups for the different songs, there hasn't been any new album since 2014 with Sayumi's graduation, 12ki haven't been featured in any album, therefore, there are no concert songs that focus on this 4 girls. Instead they bring old songs and still, they make the older girls sing most of the lines.
And as of Riho, I think it's kind of self-explanatory. Excluding Aika and 9ki, the other 4 girls had been in the group for over 7 or 8 years, they just ended the platinum era and needed to promote the shit out of Riho before the popular girls were gone. Right now, probably they don't find themselves in the same situation, where most of the popular girls are about to graduate and they need a new ace, they just don't think anybody from the 12th generation is worth-pushing, otherwise, they would be forcing Maria up our asses like they did with Riho.
- as already mentioned, Riho getting lines in nearly every song (even album songs); 9ki, too, getting quite an amount of lines in Give me Love, OK YEAH, etc.
- other 9kis in songs with senpai (Otome no Timing with Mitsui, Ikuta and Kanon; Suki da na Kimi ga with Sayumi and Mizuki; Silver no Udedokei with mainly Reina and Riho)
The only thing I can add to this is the difference between this 2 situations. All of the songs you mention are album songs, which of course show a lot more from the 9ki since they were divided into groups for the different songs, there hasn't been any new album since 2014 with Sayumi's graduation, 12ki haven't been featured in any album, therefore, there are no concert songs that focus on this 4 girls. Instead they bring old songs and still, they make the older girls sing most of the lines.
And as of Riho, I think it's kind of self-explanatory. Excluding Aika and 9ki, the other 4 girls had been in the group for over 7 or 8 years, they just ended the platinum era and needed to promote the shit out of Riho before the popular girls were gone. Right now, probably they don't find themselves in the same situation, where most of the popular girls are about to graduate and they need a new ace, they just don't think anybody from the 12th generation is worth-pushing, otherwise, they would be forcing Maria up our asses like they did with Riho.
HeyRe: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
Yeah, but if all four are duds why pick them at all? Like they added them all and didn't think even one was worth investing in? Riho was an awful vocalist when 9th gen joined and that didn't stop them then.
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TicTacAnyone
- ANGERME
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Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
After watching Emotion in Motion, I have to say Miki did fairly well with her lines (especially in Aishite, Aishite).. But her stage presence and facial expressions need work, along with her general character. Maria's got great stage presence. The other two kinda faded, besides the fact Akane looked cute.
Idk if they're not pushing themselves hard enough or if management isn't giving them enough opportunites... But they've been in almost 2 years already, they don't have a lot of time to suddenly play catch up.
Idk if they're not pushing themselves hard enough or if management isn't giving them enough opportunites... But they've been in almost 2 years already, they don't have a lot of time to suddenly play catch up.
Last edited by TicTacAnyone on Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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momoirosaya
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Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
I'm on an old H!P song kick right now, and I wish that the current girls of MM could harmonize... And make some songs with it. Amazing songs like "Yume no Naka" are never going to be performed by or made for them again...
rikako♡eripon♡airi
Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
[quote="Anderei"]
Yeah, but if all four are duds why pick them at all? Like they added them all and didn't think even one was worth investing in? Riho was an awful vocalist when 9th gen joined and that didn't stop them then.
[/quote]
Riho with all of her faults was Mariah Carey compared to the 12th gen girls.
Yeah, but if all four are duds why pick them at all? Like they added them all and didn't think even one was worth investing in? Riho was an awful vocalist when 9th gen joined and that didn't stop them then.
[/quote]
Riho with all of her faults was Mariah Carey compared to the 12th gen girls.
Jpope On Jpop! blog
Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
But my point stands that they picked someone who was not good and stuck with her. It's not that they've decided 12th gen aren't worth it now, it's that they didn't seem to think they were worth it at all.
<p class="bbc_center">
Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
[quote="Saya"]
I'm on an old H!P song kick right now, and I wish that the current girls of MM could harmonize... And make some songs with it. Amazing songs like "Yume no Naka" are never going to be performed by or made for them again...
[/quote]
Don't say that. There's always a chance... in the future. That's one of my favorite Morning Musume songs ever.
I'm on an old H!P song kick right now, and I wish that the current girls of MM could harmonize... And make some songs with it. Amazing songs like "Yume no Naka" are never going to be performed by or made for them again...
[/quote]
Don't say that. There's always a chance... in the future. That's one of my favorite Morning Musume songs ever.Made by Haru!
Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Anderei" data-cid="197998" data-time="1465440559">
<div>
But my point stands that they picked someone who was not good and stuck with her. It's not that they've decided 12th gen aren't worth it now, it's that they didn't seem to think they were worth it at all.
</div>
</blockquote>
There are levels of "bad", and each of the 12th gen girls are orders of magnitude worse than Riho was when she joined. They stuck with Riho because, in addition to having a strong but out of control voice (which I'm sure they thought she would corral far more than she would), Riho was above average at everything else, and outstanding in dance. Singing was her only deficiency. The 12th gen girls have, at best, one thing they are good at, and singing is not one of them. I think it's also fair to suggest that your assessment of Riho as a singer tends to be far worse than that of most fans, who largely think she was, at best, not that good. <a class="bbc_url" href="http://mm-bbs.org/index.php?showtopic=6677" title="">I personally rank her</a> middle of the pack historically.
As to whether they thought the 12th gen girls had any worth when they selected them, of course they did. Just because none of them have lived up to those expectations doesn't mean they didn't have a reason for having those expectations to begin with. They just fucked up is all.
<div>
But my point stands that they picked someone who was not good and stuck with her. It's not that they've decided 12th gen aren't worth it now, it's that they didn't seem to think they were worth it at all.
</div>
</blockquote>
There are levels of "bad", and each of the 12th gen girls are orders of magnitude worse than Riho was when she joined. They stuck with Riho because, in addition to having a strong but out of control voice (which I'm sure they thought she would corral far more than she would), Riho was above average at everything else, and outstanding in dance. Singing was her only deficiency. The 12th gen girls have, at best, one thing they are good at, and singing is not one of them. I think it's also fair to suggest that your assessment of Riho as a singer tends to be far worse than that of most fans, who largely think she was, at best, not that good. <a class="bbc_url" href="http://mm-bbs.org/index.php?showtopic=6677" title="">I personally rank her</a> middle of the pack historically.
As to whether they thought the 12th gen girls had any worth when they selected them, of course they did. Just because none of them have lived up to those expectations doesn't mean they didn't have a reason for having those expectations to begin with. They just fucked up is all.
Jpope On Jpop! blog
Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
But how can we say they haven't lived up to managements expectations? I think when they add a girl to the group they see her as a long term project that they have years to work on. They have been in the group for less than 2 years and have several more years to work on them. I think we should only talk about if they have lived up to expectations when they are graduating.
Made by Haru!
Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
All we can do is compare past gens with the approx. 2 year mark!
Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JPope" data-cid="198001" data-time="1465459053"><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Anderei" data-cid="197998" data-time="1465440559">
But my point stands that they picked someone who was not good and stuck with her. It's not that they've decided 12th gen aren't worth it now, it's that they didn't seem to think they were worth it at all.</blockquote>
There are levels of "bad", and each of the 12th gen girls are orders of magnitude worse than Riho was when she joined. They stuck with Riho because, in addition to having a strong but out of control voice (which I'm sure they thought she would corral far more than she would), Riho was above average at everything else, and outstanding in dance. Singing was her only deficiency. The 12th gen girls have, at best, one thing they are good at, and singing is not one of them. I think it's also fair to suggest that your assessment of Riho as a singer tends to be far worse than that of most fans, who largely think she was, at best, not that good. <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://mm-bbs.org/index.php?showtopic=6677' class="bbc_url" title="">I personally rank her</a> middle of the pack historically.
As to whether they thought the 12th gen girls had any worth when they selected them, of course they did. Just because none of them have lived up to those expectations doesn't mean they didn't have a reason for having those expectations to begin with. They just fucked up is all.</blockquote>
Yeah except at being even remotely interesting, something else 12th gen get tons of flack for. Middle of the pack =\= good. And once again, even with people like Koharu and Aika, they gave them solos in their first few singles and stuff on their albums. 9/10/11 gens all have solos in their debut singles. 12th gen, iirc, got to be apart of that syllable thing they love to do and that's it.
But my point stands that they picked someone who was not good and stuck with her. It's not that they've decided 12th gen aren't worth it now, it's that they didn't seem to think they were worth it at all.</blockquote>
There are levels of "bad", and each of the 12th gen girls are orders of magnitude worse than Riho was when she joined. They stuck with Riho because, in addition to having a strong but out of control voice (which I'm sure they thought she would corral far more than she would), Riho was above average at everything else, and outstanding in dance. Singing was her only deficiency. The 12th gen girls have, at best, one thing they are good at, and singing is not one of them. I think it's also fair to suggest that your assessment of Riho as a singer tends to be far worse than that of most fans, who largely think she was, at best, not that good. <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://mm-bbs.org/index.php?showtopic=6677' class="bbc_url" title="">I personally rank her</a> middle of the pack historically.
As to whether they thought the 12th gen girls had any worth when they selected them, of course they did. Just because none of them have lived up to those expectations doesn't mean they didn't have a reason for having those expectations to begin with. They just fucked up is all.</blockquote>
Yeah except at being even remotely interesting, something else 12th gen get tons of flack for. Middle of the pack =\= good. And once again, even with people like Koharu and Aika, they gave them solos in their first few singles and stuff on their albums. 9/10/11 gens all have solos in their debut singles. 12th gen, iirc, got to be apart of that syllable thing they love to do and that's it.
Last edited by Anderei on Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
<p class="bbc_center">
Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
[quote="Mugi"]
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Saya" data-cid="197994" data-time="1465418051">
<div>
I'm on an old H!P song kick right now, and I wish that the current girls of MM could harmonize... And make some songs with it. Amazing songs like "Yume no Naka" are never going to be performed by or made for them again...
[/quote]
Don't say that. There's always a chance... in the future. That's one of my favorite Morning Musume songs ever.
</div>
</blockquote>
I HAVE HOPE.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Saya" data-cid="197994" data-time="1465418051">
<div>
I'm on an old H!P song kick right now, and I wish that the current girls of MM could harmonize... And make some songs with it. Amazing songs like "Yume no Naka" are never going to be performed by or made for them again...
[/quote]
Don't say that. There's always a chance... in the future. That's one of my favorite Morning Musume songs ever.</div>
</blockquote>
I HAVE HOPE.
♥ Kaori • Risako ♥
♥ Sakura • Kananan • Sayuki ♥
Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
[quote="Anderei"]
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JPope" data-cid="198001" data-time="1465459053">
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Anderei" data-cid="197998" data-time="1465440559">
But my point stands that they picked someone who was not good and stuck with her. It's not that they've decided 12th gen aren't worth it now, it's that they didn't seem to think they were worth it at all.
</blockquote>
There are levels of "bad", and each of the 12th gen girls are orders of magnitude worse than Riho was when she joined. They stuck with Riho because, in addition to having a strong but out of control voice (which I'm sure they thought she would corral far more than she would), Riho was above average at everything else, and outstanding in dance. Singing was her only deficiency. The 12th gen girls have, at best, one thing they are good at, and singing is not one of them. I think it's also fair to suggest that your assessment of Riho as a singer tends to be far worse than that of most fans, who largely think she was, at best, not that good. <a class="bbc_url" href="http://mm-bbs.org/index.php?showtopic=6677" title="">I personally rank her</a> middle of the pack historically.
As to whether they thought the 12th gen girls had any worth when they selected them, of course they did. Just because none of them have lived up to those expectations doesn't mean they didn't have a reason for having those expectations to begin with. They just fucked up is all.</blockquote>
Yeah except at being even remotely interesting, something else 12th gen get tons of flack for. Middle of the pack =\= good. And once again, even with people like Koharu and Aika, they gave them solos in their first few singles and stuff on their albums. 9/10/11 gens all have solos in their debut singles. 12th gen, iirc, got to be apart of that syllable thing they love to do and that's it.
[/quote]
<div>I think I see the problem here. You think that I'm arguing that Riho is a good singer. I'm not. I'm arguing that as bad as she was, she was still better than anyone in the 12th gen, and by a rather wide margin. I fucking wish one of the 12 gen was as good a singer as Riho. Even though I wasn't following MM when the 9th was added, I did follow the addition of the new girls, including watching the audition clips as they were released, etc. There was absolutely reason to believe that singing would eventually become a strength for Riho, or at least not a liability. I don't see that in any of the 12 gens. Furthermore, Riho had a massive fan base right from the start. You might not have liked her personality -- or anything about her, obviously -- but most fans did. They especially liked her in Japan, and they liked her immediately. Koharu had the same sort of fan support from the start, and Aika was a better singer than the 12 gens, as well. This is why these girls were allowed time in the spotlight.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I just don't see where the 12th gen girls can be compared favorably to any previous generation in terms of talent or fan interest that would earn them any significant time in the spotlight. I think management saw something in each girl that they though would be an asset (not sure what), but clearly none of them (with the possible exception of Miki, who has received a decent amount of exposure) has managed to deliver on it. There has to be a reason these girls have seen so little action up until now, and it's not because the rest of the group is some talent powerhouse. It's not a matter of management having it out for them, because the company wants a return on their investment of time and money. Occam's razor suggests that they just aren't cutting it in rehearsal to the point where management feels comfortable taking the training wheels off during performances.</div>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JPope" data-cid="198001" data-time="1465459053">
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Anderei" data-cid="197998" data-time="1465440559">
But my point stands that they picked someone who was not good and stuck with her. It's not that they've decided 12th gen aren't worth it now, it's that they didn't seem to think they were worth it at all.
</blockquote>
There are levels of "bad", and each of the 12th gen girls are orders of magnitude worse than Riho was when she joined. They stuck with Riho because, in addition to having a strong but out of control voice (which I'm sure they thought she would corral far more than she would), Riho was above average at everything else, and outstanding in dance. Singing was her only deficiency. The 12th gen girls have, at best, one thing they are good at, and singing is not one of them. I think it's also fair to suggest that your assessment of Riho as a singer tends to be far worse than that of most fans, who largely think she was, at best, not that good. <a class="bbc_url" href="http://mm-bbs.org/index.php?showtopic=6677" title="">I personally rank her</a> middle of the pack historically.
As to whether they thought the 12th gen girls had any worth when they selected them, of course they did. Just because none of them have lived up to those expectations doesn't mean they didn't have a reason for having those expectations to begin with. They just fucked up is all.</blockquote>
Yeah except at being even remotely interesting, something else 12th gen get tons of flack for. Middle of the pack =\= good. And once again, even with people like Koharu and Aika, they gave them solos in their first few singles and stuff on their albums. 9/10/11 gens all have solos in their debut singles. 12th gen, iirc, got to be apart of that syllable thing they love to do and that's it.
[/quote]
<div>I think I see the problem here. You think that I'm arguing that Riho is a good singer. I'm not. I'm arguing that as bad as she was, she was still better than anyone in the 12th gen, and by a rather wide margin. I fucking wish one of the 12 gen was as good a singer as Riho. Even though I wasn't following MM when the 9th was added, I did follow the addition of the new girls, including watching the audition clips as they were released, etc. There was absolutely reason to believe that singing would eventually become a strength for Riho, or at least not a liability. I don't see that in any of the 12 gens. Furthermore, Riho had a massive fan base right from the start. You might not have liked her personality -- or anything about her, obviously -- but most fans did. They especially liked her in Japan, and they liked her immediately. Koharu had the same sort of fan support from the start, and Aika was a better singer than the 12 gens, as well. This is why these girls were allowed time in the spotlight.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I just don't see where the 12th gen girls can be compared favorably to any previous generation in terms of talent or fan interest that would earn them any significant time in the spotlight. I think management saw something in each girl that they though would be an asset (not sure what), but clearly none of them (with the possible exception of Miki, who has received a decent amount of exposure) has managed to deliver on it. There has to be a reason these girls have seen so little action up until now, and it's not because the rest of the group is some talent powerhouse. It's not a matter of management having it out for them, because the company wants a return on their investment of time and money. Occam's razor suggests that they just aren't cutting it in rehearsal to the point where management feels comfortable taking the training wheels off during performances.</div>
Last edited by JPope on Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jpope On Jpop! blog
Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
[quote="yuzu"]
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Mugi" data-cid="197999" data-time="1465452328">
<div>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Saya" data-cid="197994" data-time="1465418051">
<div>
I'm on an old H!P song kick right now, and I wish that the current girls of MM could harmonize... And make some songs with it. Amazing songs like "Yume no Naka" are never going to be performed by or made for them again...
[/quote]
Don't say that. There's always a chance... in the future. That's one of my favorite Morning Musume songs ever.
</div>
</blockquote>
I HAVE HOPE.
</div>
</blockquote>
Well.. they did bring back Memory Seishun no Hikari.........
Granted, at the moment 12ki feels like the lost generation where everything went wrong. Riho probably wasn't planned to graduate that quickly, and now they're struggling to find a new center. Ayumi has the presence but sucks at singing, Masaki is ok with her presence but very unstable in her singing (arguably, her presence too). Mizuki can't take that many lines and Sakura, with all respect towards her singing, isn't that great on stage.
What I fear is that 12ki will take years to get to a level where they're able to handle what 9ki/10ki/11ki handle right now, and they're already halfway through that time. I do get that MM is the group where members are allowed to grow in the background but this only works if your front row can handle it.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Mugi" data-cid="197999" data-time="1465452328">
<div>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Saya" data-cid="197994" data-time="1465418051">
<div>
I'm on an old H!P song kick right now, and I wish that the current girls of MM could harmonize... And make some songs with it. Amazing songs like "Yume no Naka" are never going to be performed by or made for them again...
[/quote]
Don't say that. There's always a chance... in the future. That's one of my favorite Morning Musume songs ever.</div>
</blockquote>
I HAVE HOPE.
</div>
</blockquote>
Well.. they did bring back Memory Seishun no Hikari.........
Granted, at the moment 12ki feels like the lost generation where everything went wrong. Riho probably wasn't planned to graduate that quickly, and now they're struggling to find a new center. Ayumi has the presence but sucks at singing, Masaki is ok with her presence but very unstable in her singing (arguably, her presence too). Mizuki can't take that many lines and Sakura, with all respect towards her singing, isn't that great on stage.
What I fear is that 12ki will take years to get to a level where they're able to handle what 9ki/10ki/11ki handle right now, and they're already halfway through that time. I do get that MM is the group where members are allowed to grow in the background but this only works if your front row can handle it.
Re: How Would You Help 12th Gen?
[quote="JPope"]
I think management saw something in each girl that they though would be an asset (not sure what), but clearly none of them (with the possible exception of Miki, who has received a decent amount of exposure) has managed to deliver on it.
[/quote]
Sayumi was leaving so
Akane: mini-sayu, sayu sayu
Maria: Sayu fan, filling the pink feminine girl spot, sayu
Miki: J-MELO -> What is Love? -> NY Concert -> Add an English speaker member -> One and Only -> Another concert in the US. Shows how they had plans for the overseas fans, and Miki was a nice tool to have in the group.
Ogata: God knows why, maybe because they like 4-member generations so much. Maybe they did already know about her twitter?
With none of them showing much worth on their musical talents, this is all I can come up with about their additions. I can't find any other reasons for each of them other than replacing Sayumi and help with the communication with overseas fans, and Ogata.
I think management saw something in each girl that they though would be an asset (not sure what), but clearly none of them (with the possible exception of Miki, who has received a decent amount of exposure) has managed to deliver on it.
[/quote]
Sayumi was leaving so
Akane: mini-sayu, sayu sayu
Maria: Sayu fan, filling the pink feminine girl spot, sayu
Miki: J-MELO -> What is Love? -> NY Concert -> Add an English speaker member -> One and Only -> Another concert in the US. Shows how they had plans for the overseas fans, and Miki was a nice tool to have in the group.
Ogata: God knows why, maybe because they like 4-member generations so much. Maybe they did already know about her twitter?
With none of them showing much worth on their musical talents, this is all I can come up with about their additions. I can't find any other reasons for each of them other than replacing Sayumi and help with the communication with overseas fans, and Ogata.
Hey