How Would You Help 12th Gen?

[Anderei]

H!P groups also usually last a long time and traditional idols never go out of style. H!P is a brand.

[aine]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="showraniy" data-cid="196680" data-time="1460740232">Well, I think the main issue with the moeblob (great word btw), girl-next-door members is that that's exactly what Japan wants, and Japanese fans are where the money's at. H!P needs those fans even though they really want to branch out into the Western market, so they're stuck trying to toe the line.</blockquote>So basically taking the laziest way out and pandering to the lowest common denominator of consumer. Not something I want to see from a company that I support financially and in a number of other ways.
 
Which brings up a question, did they ever do otherwise? I didn't know nor care enough about the market 10+ years ago to notice. But I'm having a hard time believing that the demands of an average Japanese consumer have went to shit so drastically.
 
So were UF/H!P ever creating and shaping the consumer and market trends and preferences, or were they always going with the flow? I'd like to think that they did. They were definitely trying to do more things out of the box and take more risks. Right now they are not and are only trailing in their safe and well-proven stream. If this brings in enough money to keep the company afloat and prevent the members from starving to death then good for them I guess, but really why would anyone want to support such a creatively and artistically bankrupt company?

[DonJuan]

I think they never really liked taking risks, but now they actually have groups that are more popular than them. When they tried something slightly different in 2001 they were in no risk of fans going to the next group, but nowadays it seems like you have to be either basic or gimmick-y.
 
I know it has been said a hundred times, but I feel like the loss of Tsunku in some departments is really obvious. Even though it's not too obvious with his songs at the moment Tsunku always had this crazy side to himself. Now, if no one important in management is kinda crazy him/herself, why should the girls think it would be good to be crazy on their own? Especially since Japan still seems to be heavily influenced by what the higher hierarchy does. Reading Tsunku's book it becomes obvious that he hasn't had 100% decision freedom over anything, in general, his influence was like 20%, but these 20% are missing now.
 
On topic, about 12th gen. I feel what they're missing as well is senior guidance. I'm not saying Mizuki, Erina and Haruna are doing a bad job, but it looks like they just make them melt into the background and care that they aren't feeling too bad. They don't guide them in building up a character. Now, that's something we haven't seen since Yossy's graduation... but it looks like it becomes more obvious now that the ones who never had that guidance are the ones that have to guide the younger ones.
 
I remember they kind of had something planned for Aika when she joined, then Yoshizawa graduated and Aika became this awkward weird background girl. Until the very end she hasn't really been any character, except for maybe the strict yet kind senpai to 9th and 10th gen. Sayumi might have tried to tease out something off the Colorful era and to be honest, 2014 was probably the most entertaining year of it because it worked. Spoiled child Masaki. Pervert Riho. Loser Erina. They all turned into serious and hard working senpai once Sayumi left. Not that this is bad, but it became rather dull.
 
It becomes more apparent looking back at the beginnings of the last generations with this guidance from their senpai. Granted, Koharu was crazy enough to go her own way and Kirarin was what formed her later on. But Sayumi would've been different if it wasn't for Rika. The whole "I'm the cutest" character could only work with someone giving her cues and the others reaction towards it. Eri, on the other hand, needed these small segments with Yuuko and the other OG to break out of her shell.

[Mugi]

[quote="aine"]
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="showraniy" data-cid="196680" data-time="1460740232">
Well, I think the main issue with the moeblob (great word btw), girl-next-door members is that that's exactly what Japan wants, and Japanese fans are where the money's at. H!P needs those fans even though they really want to branch out into the Western market, so they're stuck trying to toe the line.
</blockquote>
So basically taking the laziest way out and pandering to the lowest common denominator of consumer. Not something I want to see from a company that I support financially and in a number of other ways.

 

Which brings up a question, did they ever do otherwise? I didn't know nor care enough about the market 10+ years ago to notice. But I'm having a hard time believing that the demands of an average Japanese consumer have went to shit so drastically.

 

So were UF/H!P ever creating and shaping the consumer and market trends and preferences, or were they always going with the flow? I'd like to think that they did. They were definitely trying to do more things out of the box and take more risks. Right now they are not and are only trailing in their safe and well-proven stream. If this brings in enough money to keep the company afloat and prevent the members from starving to death then good for them I guess, but really why would anyone want to support such a creatively and artistically bankrupt company?
 
[/quote]
 
Because not everyone feels that way lol.  They still get enjoyment out of the group and the company.  I don't agree with everything the company does but I'm still happy with whats coming out currently and will continue to support until I'm not.  Everyone is different and might not feel they way you guys do.

[JPope]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="tangerine" data-cid="196707" data-time="1460820604">
<div>
I just wanted to add that '16 is probably the worst era of morning musume I've experienced. I used to abhor platinum era but now when I rewatch performances from it I realize that they were a fairly charismatic group and that I perhaps only disliked it because I felt like it wasn't the fun morning musume I was used to from other eras. if it had been a separate group I probably would've appreciated their talent more. but at least the music was pretty solid. Current mm just seems dead to me and their stale EDM certainly does not help at all. I think 12th gen kind of made me realize how old fans felt when 5th gen was added hahaha
</div>
</blockquote>
 
It's actually way worse than that now. Everyone knew that Takahashi was a great idol singer from the beginning, and Makoto and Risa obviously had potential. Konno was the only WTF of the four, and even she managed to create a character that was both natural and endearing after a couple of years. Ogawa ended up being the least prominent member of the 5th gen, and she was the one I liked the most when they first joined, lol! The Platinum era got really stale for me early on, but there's no question that they were miles ahead of the current group in talent.
 
 I don't so much mind that they are continuing to use the EDM sound, but I am frustrated at how they seem to be content to use the same EDM sound over and over again. Their first six EDM singles all sounded different from each other, but starting with the "Egao no Kimi wa" single, sounds and motifs began to be recycled, to the point where they are now just basically rewriting the same three or four songs over and over again. Going with an EDM sound was a risk, until it wasn't, and the fact that they keep mining the same musical ground shows how risk averse they become. There are other styles of EDM to explore, but you'd never know it from listing to their singles over the last two years.

[JPope]

[quote="aine"]
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="showraniy" data-cid="196680" data-time="1460740232">
Well, I think the main issue with the moeblob (great word btw), girl-next-door members is that that's exactly what Japan wants, and Japanese fans are where the money's at. H!P needs those fans even though they really want to branch out into the Western market, so they're stuck trying to toe the line.
</blockquote>
So basically taking the laziest way out and pandering to the lowest common denominator of consumer. Not something I want to see from a company that I support financially and in a number of other ways.

 

Which brings up a question, did they ever do otherwise? I didn't know nor care enough about the market 10+ years ago to notice. But I'm having a hard time believing that the demands of an average Japanese consumer have went to shit so drastically.

 

So were UF/H!P ever creating and shaping the consumer and market trends and preferences, or were they always going with the flow? I'd like to think that they did. They were definitely trying to do more things out of the box and take more risks. Right now they are not and are only trailing in their safe and well-proven stream. If this brings in enough money to keep the company afloat and prevent the members from starving to death then good for them I guess, but really why would anyone want to support such a creatively and artistically bankrupt company?
 
[/quote]
 
<div>I think they did business with an eye toward musical creativity and professional execution up until the moeblob (yes, an outstanding word, lol) took over sometime during the Platinum era. At a certain point, the group's mainstream appeal had obviously vanished, and appealing to the lowest-common-denominator was the only really viable option for management. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>The difference then was, the group still had a lot of talent, as well as a professional work ethic instilled from prior generations. I don't know if that work ethic still exists to the same degree. It might. The talent, though, is shamefully thin by comparison, and that is, if not by design, at least a product of a management philosophy that places less value on talent and strong personalities for whatever reason. I think Farrah's theory of wanting Blank-Slates for the moeblob to project their ideals onto has merit.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>What's frustrating is that a group like ANGERME exists along side of MM as company-mates. They are basically what we all want Morning Musume to be: mostly talented and charismatic. They're also getting all the good songs now. If Up Front had executed a plan to kill off MM and replace it with ANGERME, they could hardly have done a better job with the new group than they have to this point. </div>

[showraniy]

I don't always blame a company for appealing to the lowest common denominator either. Someone has to do it. It's cute to think all companies can be the edgy, ultra-inventive type that strive to break the mold, but the reality is that they need a significant pool of money to safely do that. Some go out on a limb without a money cushion to fall back on, like Squaresoft did back with the first Final Fantasy, but they knew they'd have to close the company entirely if their venture failed. That's a pretty big risk that I don't blame other companies for avoiding.
 
BUT, I also think complacency is the worst evil of the modern world, so it's not like I'm exactly proud to say H!P is afraid to try anything new. I just can't feel 100% okay with faulting them when I understand playing it safe.

[Mugi]

Maybe we just need to wait till they feel like changing up Morning Musume's sound again.  Anybody wanna take bets on where they will go next?

[DonJuan]

Hip Hop. Still rather dance focused and they can let Ayumi and Erina do the rap parts to cover up the fact that they can't sing.

[Solarblade]

I think it's more important when they'll change to be honest lol.

[TicTacAnyone]

[quote="Solarblade"]
I think it's more important when they'll change to be honest lol.
[/quote]
 
I agree. It can change to any other genre as long as it's executed well, but if they don't switch at the right time it could be bad.
 
Imo, their best bet is to change it as the 13th gen comes in. New "amazing" gen, no Riho, new sound. I don't see it happening that soon, though, as 13th gen may be announced at Kanon's grad... Who knows. I don't think they're ready to give up this sound until next year.

[Solarblade]

That and the fact this is the longest the group has been under one genre, I just want the group to change their sound before worrying about 12th/13th gen promotion lol

[Purin-chama]

Just realized Angerme is starting to do this....


It would be nice to show case all the girls much like Country Girls has been doing since their debut and Angerme has been doing. Split the girls into groups to be main in each a-side. It will help to eliminate the horrible singing if we just had 12th gen alone, and it might spark a need to improve when they have a line next to Sakura, Mizuki, or Masaki

[Farrah]

Honestly I don't think changing their musical style would be that much of a risk because the Japanese fandom (who, correct, make up the vast, vast, vast majority of the profit) really aren't paying for the music so much as they are the girls.  I've read enough 2ch threads complaining about how international fans pay too much attention to music and talent to figure that out LOL I think they would still rush out and bulk buy their little hearts out whether MM were doing EDM or folk music. 
 
I honest to god think that the primary cause for this nosedive in creativity and spunk out of H!P is the wota culture.  When you've built a fan base like that, there is very little motivation to put much effort into what you're doing.  As long as there are cute girls, the wota will open their wallets, so there's really no capitalist reason to provide much more than cute girls.  MM's Soundscan numbers made it very obvious to me that while their sales are higher than the Platinum era, their mainstream appeal has not grown.  And why invest money trying to regain that mainstream audience when you're able to turn 20k into 150k through the power of bulk buying?

[Anderei]

It's the same thing on the other spectrum. AKB has been putting out the exact same single over and over again so that they can appeal to more than just the wota fanbase.


And that's still who buys most of their stuff lol

[Farrah]

I actually feel like the exact opposite thing is happening with AKB - they continue putting out the same single over and over again because they know wota will buy it anyway.
Likewise, the newer AKB girls are mostly terribly boring compared to their predecessors.

[smtmissin]

Now if the 13th gen is extremely good, 12th gen will be too ashamed of themselves and either have to try harder or graduate from the group (better for me).

[Anderei]

That's not going to happen. Did anyone in 9/10ki leave just because Sakura sang better than them when she joined?

[Purin-chama]

[quote="Anderei"]
That's not going to happen. Did anyone in 9/10ki leave just because Sakura sang better than them when she joined?
[/quote]
Would some of the girls left the group if they were as popular? There's always exceptions, but unless they had an after-grad plan (which really only 4th gen and before did), a lot of girls started thinking about their future and left the group. There's already a trend with that going on. I wouldn't be surprised if some others followed. Maybe not from 12th gen yet, but from 9th or 10th.

[Anderei]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Myst" data-cid="196826" data-time="1461104210"><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Anderei" data-cid="196811" data-time="1461090462">
That's not going to happen. Did anyone in 9/10ki leave just because Sakura sang better than them when she joined?</blockquote>
Would some of the girls left the group if they were as popular? There's always exceptions, but unless they had an after-grad plan (which really only 4th gen and before did), a lot of girls started thinking about their future and left the group. There's already a trend with that going on. I wouldn't be surprised if some others followed. Maybe not from 12th gen yet, but from 9th or 10th.</blockquote>


Yeah but that's totally different than hoping that 13th gen will make 12th gen realize they suck and leave the group. 9/10th gens have been around long enough that their departures aren't surprising unless you expected them to stick around for 7-10 years like a lot of the recent grads.

[JPope]

Like it or not, barring injury or scandal, we're stuck with each and every one of the 12th gen girls for at least three more years. 

[Mugi]

[quote="JPope"]
Like it or not, barring injury or scandal, we're stuck with each and every one of the 12th gen girls for at least three more years. 
[/quote]
 
First thought that came into my head "Good I hope you all suffer muhahahahahaha".
 
Second thought "I actually hope the girls can win you guys over eventually".

[Noa]

I love Maria. She's so spunky and cute and she's beautiful. The other three are whatever. Oharu was on my radar in the beginning when those hilarious photos came out but she's fallen off now. I don't understand where the hype for Miki's voice comes from. She's barely better than her generation mates, and she's worse than Ayumi.

[Purin-chama]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Molly" data-cid="196839" data-time="1461123065">
I love Maria. She's so spunky and cute and she's beautiful. The other three are whatever. Oharu was on my radar in the beginning when those hilarious photos came out but she's fallen off now. I don't understand where the hype for Miki's voice comes from. She's barely better than her generation mates, and she's worse than Ayumi.</blockquote>
Agree with this. I have a soft spot for Akane though. Her and Maria are actually higher than some of the others on my list (don't care much for 10th gen sans Masaki). Maria makes me laugh in performances.

[JPope]

[quote="Molly"]
I love Maria. She's so spunky and cute and she's beautiful. The other three are whatever. Oharu was on my radar in the beginning when those hilarious photos came out but she's fallen off now. I don't understand where the hype for Miki's voice comes from. She's barely better than her generation mates, and she's worse than Ayumi.
[/quote]
 
Pretty much. With regards to Miki, any port in a storm, I guess. She's the least stinky of four turds, and to my eyes at least, seems the most comfortable of the four. But she could rupture an Achilles tendon tomorrow and I'd barely notice her absence. 

[MejraThea]

I don't find Miki to be the least stinky. Her voice isn't pleasant, her dancing is average, and her face is the worst of the Gen. The only thing she has is the English shtick which is exactly what they wanted her for, it's sad. At least Ayaka and Mika were pretty.

[Anderei]

I don't find anyone in 12th gen to be exceptionally attractive so she doesn't stand out like that to me.

[Ap2000]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="arcobaleno" data-cid="196849" data-time="1461166441">
Konno, for example.
</blockquote>
 
Probably not the best example, since some may say Konno has always and will always be boring.

[DonJuan]

She's pretty much useless right now, but I have a soft spot for Akane.

[TicTacAnyone]

[quote="JPope"]
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Molly" data-cid="196839" data-time="1461123065">
<div>
I love Maria. She's so spunky and cute and she's beautiful. The other three are whatever. Oharu was on my radar in the beginning when those hilarious photos came out but she's fallen off now. I don't understand where the hype for Miki's voice comes from. She's barely better than her generation mates, and she's worse than Ayumi.
[/quote]
 
Pretty much. With regards to Miki, any port in a storm, I guess. She's the least stinky of four turds, and to my eyes at least, seems the most comfortable of the four. But she could rupture an Achilles tendon tomorrow and I'd barely notice her absence. 
 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
And boy has she already. I think she's already had 2-3 injuries which have affected her performance. The ones I can list off the top of my head are her hand injury and foot/leg injury. Miki was my favorite 12ki coming in, but she doesn't stand out much to me anymore. I was very excited to see her grow into this great performer.... But I fear her American dance lessons have made her less adaptable to the Japanese idol dances. She does stand out in a bad way during dance shots. She really needs to fix her posture while dancing.
 
I really would like for 12ki to become more than they are. I wouldn't complain. Their success is far better than any ill-spirited failure others would wish on them. The group *needs* them to be great, for when the time comes for them to lead the group.