Thank you, kitaoji, for finally offering up a solid line of defense, a meaningful post other than "lmao!1!" or something. Seriously, it's annoying to try to debate or do anything with people who can't respond with something of content.
First off, I don't really doubt Maria is going to be the next pushed member. Going back and reading my post, I think the more I studied about how wota deem "ace" to be, etc, Maria does fit the definition some wota would use. Ace girls have joined when others were still getting the biggest pushed, but still received their own.
Personally, I'll wait until 13ki to call Maria the true ace. One of those girls may usurp her.
I don't disagree with any of the evidence you posted in favor of her being called an ace; I hate her, but I cannot deny, one bit, that she's pushed in many, many ways.
On the defined aces, I did include Miki, as well as Reina. Rika I left out since while she was ~face~-y, it was only really about the time of her graduation, which it even says right next to her name in the link. Ai-chan, I debated since I'm not sold on the "becoming" part, myself, but I digress.
As for the rest of the section you posted, it's mainly just a difference in opinion between us; there's still not set definition what ace is. That's why I brought up the wota, because if we're to look at the creators of the terms
in an idol context, not any other context, they would usually have what the term is supposed to be used for, having created it.
However, in this case, though it was likely inspired by said term, because of how many different approaches there can be to defining an ace, by that very lack of definition, the wota themselves cannot define it.
It's not to end discussion, it's just to simply say that going 'round and 'round and 'round in a circle, debating what the True Meaning is is just pointless and will get us nowhere. But, it does pass the time by quickly.
Also, I can speak only for myself, but I don't really dislike 12ki. They are the most untalented generation to ever join, especially considering they've been there nearly 2 years now and not one of them can sing without looking like she's being tortured, but they are nice girls themselves. I've translated each of their blogs in my own time, and while Maria is fake to the point of disgusting me (personally), the other 3 are all sweet girls.
And I am very sorry, but I'm sports illiterate, so I don't think I
fully understood the football comparison, but from what I gleaned, you're basically saying a girl can "become the ace", right? Once again, that's just mainly a difference in our opinion; you believe they can become one, I believe that the TRUEST1!!111 aces are there from the start, taking over and dethroning everyone.
I'm going to skip the part about talent, since I have no real meaningful opinion in that regard to share.
In terms of the origins of ace, thank you for sharing for the others where it came from; I wasn't clear on that, since I found it unimportant despite the cultural prominence of baseball. Its usage in baseball vs idoldom seems different to me, like I said a bit earlier, so while the inspiration most definitely came from baseball, I don't think all of the connotations carried over, personally.
But "personally" is the main thing here; we're both debating with what we
FEEL is the right thing. We're not debating what is right via
facts and ultimate proof (except in terms of who management pushes, like I said in my previous post), we're debating over our own way we see the term ace. And because it's something different that we both see our opinion being "right", I don't think we can really convince each other of our own positions enough that we can agree, just come to an understanding of where each party is coming from.
Like you said, you think the definition we use is silly, and that is fine. But that's just the difference in opinion, rather than me, or Thea, being factually and obvious horridly wrong on a level that can be refuted with concrete facts, so we're kind of going all over the place with no real conclusion.
Anyway, tackling point 2, which I pretty much already did, the intent was not to kill discussion, but rather, save everyone from the back-and-forth that's pretty much happening right now. I prefer to argue my side if I have solid, solid, solid, SOLID facts to back me up, otherwise a) I'll look like a complete fool, and b) it gets the discussion nowhere.
I consider the Japanese fandom to be the ones we should look to when discussion Japanese-originated terms in idoldom, since they are the ones who made them. If we're discussing the lexical differences, it's best to look at the source and see what was meant by it. And, of course, like I've said and am becoming a broken record about, the source itself cannot agree on it.
We can discuss 'till we're blue in the face, but the takeaway is that neither of us are wrong, but neither of us are right, because we have an opinion that isn't morally wrong or harmful in any sense, so there's really no middle ground we can do.
I agree about the ace usually getting the center position in some way or another. Riho is what I consider to be the ace of the group in her time, but if we're talking talent, she is widely, widely, widely agreed on as THE dancing ace of MM, so they showcased the ace front-and-center as well as her main claim to fame as a talent-ace, dancing. Two for one.
I would argue that it was still more of a Riho showcase; the other 3 were just the only other ones who could really dance without looking like a dying chicken, particularly Ayumi.
On your defense of Masaki, I do appreciate it. I can't say I personally care for her, but it's not a strong dislike.
Why I dismissed her is only because in my own personal definition of ace, she received absolutely nothing during her first two singles, something that destroys the chance of an ace for me. Maria, however, got pushes in her second single, continued in her third. Far more than Masaki received. Masaki only started getting a bit of something in OTT, and it wasn't until Wakuteka that it really emerged.
That was the reason I discredited her as ace; since I don't believe in becoming an ace, she simply cannot be one to me. Her talents and abilities are hers, and I don't discredit her for them at all.
And I just want to end this by saying that none of your reply actually made me mad! If anything, I was happy to finally be able to debate in very much a lots of words way with someone, without any real jerkiness on either side. Though, of course, I was being rather shady and harsh in my last post since I feel like some of you guys can be a bit too stubborn in trying to understand a person's position.
I fully understand your opinion, kitaoji, and I respect it. I just want to call this as a truce, because, in flat-out honesty, none of what you wrote moved my own opinion an inch to think "wow, I was so wrong", rather, I just got a great understand of your own opinions, which is still valuable in and of itself.
But, seriously, thank you for writing such a well-written and detailed response. It was great.
She was the only person that did harmonies. They're quite wonderful, I have them ripped. It's what made OMW worth listening to for me. Although, admittedly at the time I was thrilled to have a Kudou center. But other than that I never really enjoyed the song, only the harmonies.
I love that clip, I've payed it so many times before.
