[2016.11.23] Morning Musume '16 - Sexy Cat no Enzetsu / Mukidashi de Mukiatte / Sou Janai

[Revangelis]

Announced at the start of their fall tour ~MY VISION~

[Noa]

I was wondering when they were going to announce a new single. Seems like it's been an extra long time.

[sayu1991]

Well the names sound interesting at least. Hopefully we'll get at least one good song this time around

[Elpis]

I wasn't expecting this at all. I wonder what Sexy Cat is supposed to sound like. It sounds like something that's supposed to be awesome but will end up terrible.

[arcobaleno]

Really, with the "talent" in Morning Musume right now, why don't we just rename it to "Dying Cat no Himei"?

[Meikochi]

Oricon report titles with Maria being center of Sou Janai.

"Sexy cat" makes me think of Cat's Eyes so I hope I'll like Sexy Cat as much as I liked Cat's Eyes.

[MejraThea]

When you're hit with that overwhelming feeling of mistake-ness.

[Elpis]

I can't link it right now (since I'm on mobile and not on wifi) But a radio rip of Sou Janai was posted on H!O so if anyone'S curious about it, it's out there.

[aine]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp5heK6xsco

It's ok. Groovy bass, but I'll withhold the judgement until full version.

[Anderei]

H!P wiki says it's a Tsunku song.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="arcobaleno" data-cid="200522" data-time="1474740359">
Really, with the "talent" in Morning Musume right now, why don't we just rename it to "Dying Cat no Himei"?</blockquote>
Maria being center makes this appropriate. They're saying she's the next ace though.

[Shoujo Q]

[quote="aine"]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp5heK6xsco


It's ok. Groovy bass, but I'll withhold the judgement until full version.
[/quote]
 
It sounds like Tsunku ripped from Berryz, Dakishimete Dakishimete.

[arcobaleno]

[quote="Anderei"]
Maria being center makes this appropriate. They're saying she's the next ace though.
[/quote]
 
In this case, she's not an ace like Riho was. She's definitely getting pushed, but she hasn't become the girl with most lines, most promotion, the actual ~face~ of the group.
 
.........
 
Yet
 
She is center, so she is rising up, but since she hasn't been getting the REALLY big silver-platter treatment (a la Gotou, Riho, etc, I'd even say Reina since she got a lot when she first joined), she's not applicable for the ace position. Right now, no one in MM is, the only one who could truly do so is a 13th gen member whenever that happens.
 
Maria's definitely a popular and pushed member, but no true ace.
 
The crazed fanbase she has at times may try and say that, but history has already proven them wrong. 
 
(Not saying you're one of them at all, since I know you aren't, but I've seen the Masakidrones in action, along with the ___drones of every popular member, and they're all the same level of cuckoo. There's probably still people calling Masaki an ace, which is laughable. At least a misguided case can be made for Maria.)

[Anderei]

Well, I did say 'next'. And she's never going to get a vote of confidence from me lol.

[MejraThea]

The argument is that she can't be the "next" one, though. Ace is ace from the get go. (Gotou, Riho) She can be the next center, but not ace. (Ai was center but not ace)

[Anderei]

Eh, I think ace is just a word people attach to their faves because they think it makes them special. The ace is just whoever is the most popular and the face at the moment. Has zero to do with anything else.

[Farrah]

It sounds very "synthy H!P painting by the numbers"... but that also means I like it LOL I just wish they didn't all sound completely awful.

[Revangelis]

Full concert rip of Sou Janai
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKOVOSUhMzs
 

[arcobaleno]

[quote="Anderei"]
Eh, I think ace is just a word people attach to their faves because they think it makes them special. The ace is just whoever is the most popular and the face at the moment. Has zero to do with anything else.
[/quote]
 
I was looking up the difference between ace and center in Japanese, to see what wota themselves have said, since they're the ones who usually create the terms.
 
In this case, no one can agree, at all, what makes a girl a center or a girl an ace, so this argument is a stalemate.
 
There are people who have said what Thea and I believe, and ones who have said what you believe, and ones who have said what neither of us seem to think it is.
 
Since there's no one consensus on this, any reply I'd make trying to be "look!11! the truth!11!1" would be cherry-picking and unethical to do, especially knowing the opposing views and lack of One Solid Truth, so I'm raising up my white flag, since it's the right thing to do in a case like this. 

[aine]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="arcobaleno" data-cid="200556" data-time="1474807914">Since there's no one consensus on this, any reply I'd make trying to be "look!11! the truth!11!1" would be cherry-picking and unethical to do, especially knowing the opposing views and lack of One Solid Truth, so I'm raising up my white flag, since it's the right thing to do in a case like this.  </blockquote>
But how can we have a long-winded discussion where no one ever convinces anyone like that?

I agree that in almost all cases an ace is an ace from the get go like Riho, although I'd argue that Takahashi has grown to be an ace over time. It just didn't feel that much like it because it was a gradual process for her, rather than instant amazement you get from a natural born ace.

Any girl can be the centre for a song if the powers that be say so. And then you have some girl that are the centre, or at least the front most of the time. It often overlaps with being an ace, but it's not a pre-requisite.

And in my head I also have a special category of The Star that's reserved for Sayumi only. Also, for some food for thought, I consider Sayu to be the centre in Mikaeri Bijin, but this may be reaching a bit too far into the meta territory.

[JPope]

[quote="Thea"]
The argument is that she can't be the "next" one, though. Ace is ace from the get go. (Gotou, Riho) She can be the next center, but not ace. (Ai was center but not ace)
[/quote]
 
When you say "Ai was center but not ace" are you talking about Takahashi?

[Vikitty]

LOL pls, Takahashi was more of an ace than Riho was (and I dislike both of them).

[MejraThea]

[quote="JPope"]
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Thea" data-cid="200541" data-time="1474771333">
<div>
The argument is that she can't be the "next" one, though. Ace is ace from the get go. (Gotou, Riho) She can be the next center, but not ace. (Ai was center but not ace)
[/quote]
 
When you say "Ai was center but not ace" are you talking about Takahashi?
 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
I agree with Aine that Takahashi Ai gradually grew to become an ace, but what I meant was that she didn't join as the straightaway ace like the other examples.

[Farrah]

I think "ace" is a word with so little meaning, basically anyone could be considered an ace as long as the company pushes them to the forefront enough.  Especially in the current environment, where idols are not expected bring even mediocre performance skills to the table.

[Vikitty]

lol and let's be real, Koharu was promoted as an ace. 
 
IMO ace, if anything, has just become as meaningless a word as "triggered" now.

[JPope]

If Takahashi wasn't an "ace" then the word has no meaning. She's one of the most talented members ever, and she was leaned on heavily to front songs despite being surrounded by more talent than just about any other lineup.

[MejraThea]

Be sure you read and answer the whole sentence/convo, not just the one part! Otherwise, it loses its context.

[arcobaleno]

Ace has nothing to do with talent, if this is the context we're putting it in. It's simply who is chosen to be The Star of the group, even if they're complete shit. It has to do simply with management and popularity. The sheer amount of talentless idols who are promoted to being "aces" in this context and faces of the group more than proves this.
 
Remember, in the idol world, talent has NOTHING to do with anything.

[JPope]

Then I have a completely different definition of the term "ace" than the rest of you, because "ace" to me means "exceptionally talented" over and above the rest of the group. Riho probably never deserved that title, but I suppose one could make a solid argument that she qualified in the context of modern J-idol standards.
 
In any context, though, Takahashi was more of an "Ace" than any other member of MM that came before or after her.

[arcobaleno]

[quote="aine"]
But how can we have a long-winded discussion where no one ever convinces anyone like that? 
[/quote]
 
This is how!   :
 
 
 
[quote="JPope"]
Then I have a completely different definition of the term "ace" than the rest of you, because "ace" to me means "exceptionally talented" over and above the rest of the group.
[/quote]
 
I didn't elaborate on all the different definitions of "ace" that wota were fighting over, since my post was aimed at Anderei, whose opinion wasn't the same as yours, but this is one of the definitions that they use, so you're not alone.
 
And as you can see from replies, already, by Valerie, Anderei, and Farrah, there's no real agreement on what makes an ace an ace. The only reason I was arguing against you in this case was just that you were seeming to peg "ace" in the way Thea and I were talking about, e.g., girl who received huge push from the beginning, loved by management, popular as hell from the get-go, etc.
 
Takahashi was not one, though yeah, a case can be made for her "becoming" one. Wota found her ugly when she first joined, she wasn't given a huge push (hell, Ogawa was the planned 5th gen pushed member to start off with), and she didn't really emerge into her own until a while after she joined.
 
Contrast with Reina, who received the majority of lines in Shabondama and center time, continued to be featured in ways in other singles, etc. And Fujimoto, too, though since she was already established, it's hard to say whether that was true ace (an unknown rising to star-level popularity and pushing by management) or not.
 
And, of course, we can never forget Gotou, who got time to shine in her very first single, and then, due to its huge popularity, as well as her OWN popularity, became a major face of MM. Hell, even Abe is considered an ace, as she was the face of MM for many years.
 
Koharu is a kind of different case. I think her ace-pushing really came to fruition with Kirarin, honestly.
 
And then, of course, came Riho.
 
All of them had the same treatments applied to them, sans Koharu. Without the anime, I have no idea if she would've been continued to be pushed or not, so she's very much the "what if?" outlier of this whole thing.
 
 
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If you take ace in that context, Takahashi is not one. She never was one, because it starts at the beginning.
 
If you take ace in no context, then, of course, it means nothing to you and you have nothing to contribute to this discussion, since.... it means nothing. What's there to discuss?
 
If you take ace in a talented context, then more categories emerge, defined by the wota who believe in this kind of ace: Dancing Ace, Singing Ace, Visual Ace. So find an ace for each category, unless you have that actual Miracle Girl who is all 3.
 
If you take ace to mean "center", then... I find it kind of pointless, since centers can be changed, and depending on the single, can be multiple within the single. Like the Oh my wish! single.
 
OMW: Kudou, Suzuki
Sukatto; Sayashi
Ima Sugu: Satou, Nonaka (-ish)
 
so, I, personally, think equating ace to center is pointless, since the term ace is supposed to be used for a member who stands out in some way from the whole group.
 
 
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On the "ace" is meaningless thing, if it really was meaningless, then it'd be pretty weird that wota invented the term to stand for SOME kind of standout girl, whether pushed by management or talented. There wouldn't be a lot of people asking "エースとセンターの違いは何？" and such, either.
 
It means something.
 
You are, of course, always free to have your opinion, but don't be close-minded to all evidence that it does mean something as a term.
 
Anyway, has it lost a lot of its meaning from batshit fans who think their favorite is an ace in everything? Sure. But that doesn't mean the base concept is null and void, you know. Just because idiots bastardize it doesn't mean that the original concept, if used in it's actual meaning, is bullshit, either.
 
If we're bringing up "triggered", remember, despite Tumblr, it is a valid term used for war veterans and the like, who have PTSD episodes triggered by certain sights, noises, etc, that cause them to go into a bad state.
 
Just because that term has been ruined doesn't mean the original concept that it was created in is also ruined, either. It just means you need to pull your head out of your ass and realize that moronic people will always ruin all kinds of terms because they have no idea what it really means, and use the term as it should be meant. Yeah, you'll have to fight against the people going "this isn't a valid concept!!11111" but if you can spread some knowledge, what's the loss? Well, other than the frustrating brick wall kind of people, lol.
 
Hate them or love them, aces will always be aces. When it comes to the talent-variety, it can very much be an opinion-based thing, though in many ways, there are the "obvious" more talented ones. But when it comes to promoted, popular and pushed, that's already written in stone based on the Musume's history and popularity within the group, like it or not.
 
 
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TL;DR: Ace is a loaded term, sure. It means something (or nothing) different to many people. But the fact is, it's still a term different from such things as "center" and ~miracle girl~ and all that crap. Since the wota can't agree on what it means, it's moot for US to try and fight over what the term really means.
 
However, it does have set, popular meanings, as I described above.
 
And yeah, while I will attempt to respect the opinion that it's meaningless, I frankly think that you guys need to look past the bunch of idiots and learn more of the history behind a term before declaring it meaningless. If you do that, usually it comes off like you've actually searched into it and have The Opinion, because you need to do your homework on any kind of term or meaning, since hardly anyone, whether IRL or online, will use any term or meaning correctly.
 
If we all took "triggered" at face value, then we'd be writing off the actual people it was created for and still holds meaning for. They are always fighting to reclaim that term, and because of the drama surrounding it, their fight has made the correct, original, ACTUAL usage visible. That's kind of what I'm hoping to do with "ace", here. Whether or not you still agree is on you, in the end, of course.
 
It has become a buzzword for the idiots, just like ALL kinds of idiots have their own special buzzwords, but it's a valid term created to define a certain type of idol, distinguished either by management or by her talent, first and foremost.

[kitaoji]

<div>Okay. Lots of defense-mode internet speak coming up.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If you're debating whether or not Maria is a "Next Ace", I offer the following magazine photo.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>

Spoiler: [+]

qxcsIx7.jpg

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<div> </div>
<div>If you're doubting a lack of "silver platter treatment" for Maria - have you just not seen how much push she's getting this year?  Go watch the Houston concert. Mr. Moonlight in the spring tour. Ai no Gundan on Music Station. What is Love on J-Melo.  She was front and center in a lot of those, even if she didn't get singing push.  Just as how Sayumi's inability to carry a pitch didn't stop her from developing into a Great Idol (inasmuch as actresses who can't sing can, well, perform just fine), Maria got the first 12th gen Greeting DVD, first mini-photobook of all H!P, first solo photobook, plus the PB-related goods on Hello!Shop.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Teddy and Ayumi didn't get tapestries for their photobooks, I should add, and tapestries didn't exactly sell out to the point past H!P's internal estimates.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If you don't like the goods push - well, let's talk about baseball.  Maria got to throw the season-opening first pitch for the Fighters within months of joining Morning Musume.  H!P rarely does this unless there's an important promotion going on: Kananan threw for the Orix Buffaloes in mid-season to get "Yattaruchan" noticed in the general media, and previous promos with UF's corporate favorite, the Rakuten Eagles, got theme songs. Maria got the first pitch gig riding on little else than her obsession with the baseball team.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>And: the fact that Sanspo's Twitter specialist tosses in Maria's "tottemo ureshii" line when the Fighters win in games this year. They're acknowledging and indulging in the Maria-promotion.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>-----</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Next, debate about the word "ace".  We've got lots of thoughts running around the word "ace" here, and I think y'all's dislike of the 12th gen is adding unnecessary heat to the fire.  In which case, I'm going to use JP Wikipedia's definition of the performing ace:  someone who is more talented or popular than the other members of a troupe or group.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>There is an actual "aces of Morning Musume" section in their wiki page too, so let me add that in as another definition: the ace is the "symbol" of the group. Guess what, we forgot about Rika, Miki, Ai-chan, and Reina as defined aces.  So yes, I would challenge Thea's usage of "Ace is the Ace from the get-go", since it creates unnecessary burden on the performer and doesn't pay sufficient tribute to Sayumi. ;)  </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>So let's talk about "aces must be the very best from the very beginning", and talk football since I know nothing about baseball! Not everyone can be like QB Aaron Rodgers, who had both a great college playing career as well as professional career.  Sometimes you get a Peyton Manning (who was third string when he started, mind you), and sometimes you get a Tim Tebow (I'm not going to go into details).  Sometimes you'll get Aces who make it into the List of Greats, and sometimes you'll get college stars who fall flat in the real world.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>This somewhat explains the Koharu-treatment.  The media was told that Tsunku wanted an "Ace", and Koharu got picked, so Koharu became "The Ace" by association.  Now Marketing at that time could have simply given the Ace title to Ai-chan and Miki, but doing that would run the risk of having unhelpful media commentary.  H!P's not in the business of generating bad publicity, so while they didn't strip Koharu of her title, I think it's fair that she certainly wasn't an ace by the time of the Resonant Blue promotions.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>-----</div>
<div> </div>
<div>So, since we're getting mixed up with ace and talent, who's my pick for talent in the current roster?  Teddy, hands down.  </div>
<div> </div>
<div>You can pair her up with any of the front line girls (Mizuki, Ayumi, Riho, Maachan) and she rises up to the challenge, in addition to her solo work.  She handled her first showcase lines in "Help Me" and "Egao Yes Nude" with ease.  She emotes just fine in the "Kanashiki Heaven" with Karin.  She's still improving instead of sitting still - there were times when I felt she was a bit shrill in her early performances - I had a hard time telling her apart from Riho in Manpower in 2013 (or maybe it was Resonant Blue), but I liked their most recent performance where it's not as piercing.  </div>
<div> </div>
<div>If that's a result of deterioration of her voice, then well, that's unfortunate.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>-----</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Now for some responses to previous posts: </div>
<div> </div>
<div>1) The loanword "エース" didn't enter the Japanese language via idoldom.  Good ol' wikipedia does offer some insight into the origins of "Ace" within the context of baseball plays, and given the sport's importance within Japanese culture, I'd prefer to use it with all the connotations given to it in baseball-commentary discourse over wota musings, if just because baseball came first.  </div>
<div> </div>
<div>So yes, I agree that "Ace" means something; I just happen to think Arco and Thea's usage to mean that "it must be given to someone in the beginning" is somewhat silly.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>2) The fact that wota don't agree on what a word means or how an idol is popular/deserves pushing, etc., should not be an end-all to discussion.  I don't mind following the idea that "Japanese fans know better than the international fandom", but it shouldn't kill discussion and I think we're all for the worse if someone pulls hierarchy to kill conversation.  Not just for fandom, mind you, but I've had to wrestle with the concept of "authorial intent" with other literary topics.  </div>
<div> </div>
<div>3) WRT to the ace/center discussion, I'd like to look into AKB to answer how the two are different.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>They promote janken and sousenkyou singles, where there is little positive correlation between performing ability, popularity, and being the center of a popular song.  I'm happy to agree that the two shouldn't be treated the same, so let's look at it this way:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Usually, the ace will get a center position - that's a privilege (among others) given to an ace. However, as with large institutions like H!P, project (aka, song production & promotion) goals are allowed to vary, and Marketing didn't want to push Riho's singing abilities for Oh My Wish. Yes, they gave the dominant lines to Haruka and Kanon, but it's not as if they shoved the front line members in the back: Mizuki, Ayumi, and Riho had very prominent dance showcases.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>4) Maachan was my favorite when I re-entered MM fandom in 2012, so I'd like to offer a few words of defense. I'm going to say that she's a wildcard, and it'd be great if you tried to look past her faults before dismissing her "ace abilities". Kudos to Tsunku for picking her, and kudos to Tsunku again for picking Sakura to give us some amazing Maachan/Sakura chemistry, both in performance and growth as a person.  (Speaks again to Teddy as being amazingly talented!)  Maachan has been great this year on her performance, but she's like an explosion: you need the right amount of fuel, oxygen, and timing for her to actually deliver.  Sometimes you get mindblowing performances like the Memory duet and Aishite, and other times you get this very unfortunate "Endless Sky".  </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Also, I'd like to credit her training 12th gen in developing a sense of rhythm.  Just goes to saying that just because you're good at something doesn't mean that you can teach it easily (I'm looking at Ayumi here). I like Maachan, and I like the feeling that Maachan's useful and important and liked in the group.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>-----</div>
<div> </div>
<div>All this above words words words and I haven't talked about the new single!  So here we go: </div>
<div> </div>
<div>I see the parallels between Dakishimete and this song, but see it as Tsunku reusing the same note progression ("Ai no tsubomi sake mae ni"), albeit in a different position.  Otherwise, I picked up snippets of S/m's "Otona no Tochuu", Ren'ai Hunter's song structure, and synths from stuff that he was producing in 2012.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>This is all very interesting, but it's not something as grabby as Wagamama or builds up like Wakuteka, or safe stuff like Ima Koko Kara.  I might rank it higher if there's a good dance break or interlude, however.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>-----</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Finally, since I've pissed off Thea & Arco (among others) with this Wall of Text, here's a link to a Trigger, brought to you by Morning Musume DVD Magazine 84   :</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>

Spoiler: [+]

<div>
<div>https://twitter.com/kazukazu4129/status/758651705504313344</div>
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